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It's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela as a "Hy

by codex 13y ago

It's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela as a "Hybrid Regime", and as the least democratic state in South America. His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. I guess Snowden doesn't have a problem getting help from, or possibly living under, an authoritarian régime, if it suits his interests. Not a terribly principled man. Indeed, it would be better for the cause of domestic surveillance were he to subject himself to the mega-press event that would be a criminal trial in the U.S. Obviously the outcome would be much worse for him in that case.

AJ007 13y ago
Its a giant red flag that he fears the US more than any of these countries -- which, as Americans, would assume would happily interrogate him for years to get the valuable intelligence he allegedly holds. Watching very closely.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  It's not a red flag. He's committed a crime in the US. If I shot someone in Australia and fled to Iran that wouldn't be a "red flag" about Australia. (I'm not saying Snowden did anything wrong, but he definitely committed crimes under US law.)
Ihmahr 13y ago
> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?
- wazoox 13y ago
  Honestly, China and Russia fare extremely bad. Cuba has been better these last few years, but still is a single party undemocratic regime. Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable.
  - pmelendez 13y ago
    "Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable." Venezuelan here, and I can tell you that there is nothing reasonable about Venezuela these days. The big scandal here is that USA citizens had been monitored without a warrant but in Venezuela government agencies had been doing that for years and without any shame. They had shown in national TV, audio recordings of phone conversations just to embarrass people that are no pro-government (nothing relating to felonies or crimes, just to make fun of them). So it is ironic indeed.
    - wazoox 13y ago
      This doesn't seem worse than what's happening in the USA (monitoring... just about everybody; keeping hundreds of political prisoners at Gitmo for 12 years and counting) or Europe (UK government spying on... just everyone; or the countless robberies and abuse of power of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and friends).
      - pmelendez 13y ago
        It is worse in the sense that the have no shame to hide it, at least in the US was a secret. On the other hand, it is ironic to do what he did and then escape to a country where freedom conditions are way worse.
- cmsmith 13y ago
  Poor. [1, 2] Pretty much everything bad that the US does, these countries do worse by an order of magnitude. We use hyperbole to compare Snowden to political prisoners in these countries, but I imagine that idea would seem pretty ridiculous to a real political prisoner in China or NK or Russia. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_Index&oldid=547250197#Democracy_index_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_Index&ol... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World
- Ihmahr 13y ago
  I see reactions about (horrific!) internal problems of these countries, but does that begin to compare to 250.000 deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq?
wazoox 13y ago
Strangely, Venezuela is deemed undemocratic in right-wing newspapers and democratic in left-wing ones. As far as I can judge by myself, it's certainly as democratic as the US or any European country. I mean at least there were real ideological differences between the two last presidential candidates. Whereas Obama's simply going on with the Bush policies, while in Europe people aren't allowed to choose their economic policy through vote.
senjmccarthy 13y ago
It's disappointing to see you write this, codex. I thought you were a pretty smart guy. You seem sure that a trial in the US would be a mega-press event. You mean, like the Manning military trial? Are you reading the press coverage of Snowden? The TV press coverage? How do you think he would be portrayed by the US media? Surely you're not that naive. Indeed it might be better for the cause of domestic surveillance to have him tried in the US press and a federal court in Virginia, right outside Washington. Most Americans, the ones who get their news passively from TV or who do not watch the news much, would never even know what happened; his fate would be decided quickly and without fanfare, except announcement of the severe punishment he receives, to show that "leakers" are some sort of "insider threat": scare tactics (and maybe a high profile prosecution as part of some US Attorney's political aspirations to one day run for office). The more he evades this (expected) fate, the more he embarasses Washington, and the more otherwise ignorant Americans will learn who he is and what his principles are. His principles seem pretty clear so far: Do you want every packet that travels over the Internet to be clear text, captured and analyzed by governments? Or do you want reasonably secure communications, free from prying eyes, similar the US postal mail? Do you want the government to decide this for you, in secret? Snowdon thinks you should be entitled to decide for yourself. Your comment about the democratic ratings of other countries and getting help from authoritarian regimes if "it suits his interests" could easily be applied to the US government as well. They will deal with regimes as it suits their interests, regardless of the form of government of those regimes, so long as it suits their interests (e.g. oil). The government does what it has to do to acquire oil so you can run your car, applicances, devices, etc. And Snowden is doing what he has to do to enable his country (and maybe others) to debate the question of spying on what travels over the Internet.
- codex 13y ago
  It's possible the press would not portray his trial fairly, but the proceedings are public, and a trial would draw continued press, whereas if Snowden successfully seeks asylum, the story goes cold. I should elaborate on Snowden's choice of helper countries: is a national security risk to the United States. Here you have someone in possession of state secrets who needs help from a foreign government. That's the definition of compromised. What is he going to trade for protection? More classified information, of course--possibly much more sensitive information than the relatively harmless, widely known) programs like PRISM. He has national security information, and foreign governments want it. This information will eventually flow to the intelligence agencies of China and/or Russia.

by codex 13y ago

AJ007 13y ago

Its a giant red flag that he fears the US more than any of these countries -- which, as Americans, would assume would happily interrogate him for years to get the valuable intelligence he allegedly holds. Watching very closely.

Tloewald 13y ago
It's not a red flag. He's committed a crime in the US. If I shot someone in Australia and fled to Iran that wouldn't be a "red flag" about Australia. (I'm not saying Snowden did anything wrong, but he definitely committed crimes under US law.)

Ihmahr 13y ago

> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?

wazoox 13y ago
Honestly, China and Russia fare extremely bad. Cuba has been better these last few years, but still is a single party undemocratic regime. Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable.
- pmelendez 13y ago
  "Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable." Venezuelan here, and I can tell you that there is nothing reasonable about Venezuela these days. The big scandal here is that USA citizens had been monitored without a warrant but in Venezuela government agencies had been doing that for years and without any shame. They had shown in national TV, audio recordings of phone conversations just to embarrass people that are no pro-government (nothing relating to felonies or crimes, just to make fun of them). So it is ironic indeed.
  - wazoox 13y ago
    This doesn't seem worse than what's happening in the USA (monitoring... just about everybody; keeping hundreds of political prisoners at Gitmo for 12 years and counting) or Europe (UK government spying on... just everyone; or the countless robberies and abuse of power of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and friends).
    - pmelendez 13y ago
      It is worse in the sense that the have no shame to hide it, at least in the US was a secret. On the other hand, it is ironic to do what he did and then escape to a country where freedom conditions are way worse.
cmsmith 13y ago
Poor. [1, 2] Pretty much everything bad that the US does, these countries do worse by an order of magnitude. We use hyperbole to compare Snowden to political prisoners in these countries, but I imagine that idea would seem pretty ridiculous to a real political prisoner in China or NK or Russia. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_Index&oldid=547250197#Democracy_index_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Democracy_Index&ol... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World
Ihmahr 13y ago
I see reactions about (horrific!) internal problems of these countries, but does that begin to compare to 250.000 deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq?

wazoox 13y ago

Strangely, Venezuela is deemed undemocratic in right-wing newspapers and democratic in left-wing ones. As far as I can judge by myself, it's certainly as democratic as the US or any European country. I mean at least there were real ideological differences between the two last presidential candidates. Whereas Obama's simply going on with the Bush policies, while in Europe people aren't allowed to choose their economic policy through vote.

senjmccarthy 13y ago

It's disappointing to see you write this, codex. I thought you were a pretty smart guy. You seem sure that a trial in the US would be a mega-press event. You mean, like the Manning military trial? Are you reading the press coverage of Snowden? The TV press coverage? How do you think he would be portrayed by the US media? Surely you're not that naive. Indeed it might be better for the cause of domestic surveillance to have him tried in the US press and a federal court in Virginia, right outside Washington. Most Americans, the ones who get their news passively from TV or who do not watch the news much, would never even know what happened; his fate would be decided quickly and without fanfare, except announcement of the severe punishment he receives, to show that "leakers" are some sort of "insider threat": scare tactics (and maybe a high profile prosecution as part of some US Attorney's political aspirations to one day run for office). The more he evades this (expected) fate, the more he embarasses Washington, and the more otherwise ignorant Americans will learn who he is and what his principles are. His principles seem pretty clear so far: Do you want every packet that travels over the Internet to be clear text, captured and analyzed by governments? Or do you want reasonably secure communications, free from prying eyes, similar the US postal mail? Do you want the government to decide this for you, in secret? Snowdon thinks you should be entitled to decide for yourself. Your comment about the democratic ratings of other countries and getting help from authoritarian regimes if "it suits his interests" could easily be applied to the US government as well. They will deal with regimes as it suits their interests, regardless of the form of government of those regimes, so long as it suits their interests (e.g. oil). The government does what it has to do to acquire oil so you can run your car, applicances, devices, etc. And Snowden is doing what he has to do to enable his country (and maybe others) to debate the question of spying on what travels over the Internet.

codex 13y ago
It's possible the press would not portray his trial fairly, but the proceedings are public, and a trial would draw continued press, whereas if Snowden successfully seeks asylum, the story goes cold. I should elaborate on Snowden's choice of helper countries: is a national security risk to the United States. Here you have someone in possession of state secrets who needs help from a foreign government. That's the definition of compromised. What is he going to trade for protection? More classified information, of course--possibly much more sensitive information than the relatively harmless, widely known) programs like PRISM. He has national security information, and foreign governments want it. This information will eventually flow to the intelligence agencies of China and/or Russia.