5 ms·

My opinion of the HK SAR, which has always been quite high, just went up a couple of notches. I hope Snowden finds asylum and can live a reasonably comfortable

My opinion of the HK SAR, which has always been quite high, just went up a couple of notches. I hope Snowden finds asylum and can live a reasonably comfortable life. He's a patriot. I'm a US citizen and I'm pro-US but this bullshit has to stop.

nthj 13y ago
> I'm a US citizen and I'm pro-US and this bullshit has to stop. FTFY
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  Agreed.
seferphier 13y ago
HK just dodged a bullet. this was the most strategically sound thing to do. HK govt would just listen to the officials in China on this matter. In the same time, it has to respect the judicial system (if he applies to be asylum seeker). A very careful line must be struck between the two.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Great comment on the awkwardness of their situation. A bullet it was not, however. It would have been slow, protracted and very painful. There are some happy officials, feeling 10 years older but having a celebratory drink I'm sure.
reinhardt 13y ago
Best part was the closing: "Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong."
- simonbarker87 13y ago
  I laughed out loud at this bit. Translation "Maybe we would have helped but seeing as you're monitoring our networks without our say so - we won't"
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Or, alternatively, "You jerks have a lot of nerve, expecting favors from us after being caught with your hands in our pockets."
    - samstave 13y ago
      "But... but.. I was getting this cookie for you!!"
- malandrew 13y ago
  I'm curious if this is going to happen with every country he visits. I really wouldn't be surprised if he has documents for transgressions made by the NSA against every country on his list of places to go. For every alliance we have won with diplomacy, it only takes an act of espionage to act as the fire that burns it down. I'm all in favor of espionage, but only against companies we are actively hostile with. I'm really curious if he is going to produce damning evidence of deep, active, ongoing espionage against any of the other four of the five eyes (Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand).
  - malandrew 13y ago
    oops. meant "countries" not "companies"
npalli 13y ago
>>My opinion of the HK SAR, which has always been quite high, just went up a couple of notches. How so? For the past 10 days we have been hearing non-stop reports of the infamous extradition process that will drag on for 10-15 years in HK, providing asylum to Snowden. Turns out a mere day after espionage case was filed Snowden is allowed to leave HK. Do you seriously believe Snowden thought, wow it was great living in HK for 10 days but now I need to go to Venezuela or Cuba (via Russia) since they are havens of freedom and human rights? Snowden put HK in a very tough position this is literally the best way they could get the US off their backs. The strong language in the press release is all show, look at what people do not what they say.
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  > For the past 10 days we have been hearing non-stop reports of the infamous extradition process that will drag on for 10-15 years in HK Have we? I didn't read those. I also didn't expect HK to grant asylum and I don't think there's any precedent for a US citizen seeking asylum in or being extradited (or not) from HK. HK's track record with asylum seekers isn't that great (around 10% are granted asylum) and the bulk of those cases involve people from the region. HK doesn't have its own laws in place regarding asylum seekers and instead defers to the UNHRC for those decisions. Did Snowden leave HK because they asked him to? I don't think there's any evidence of that. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) What they did do is refuse to arrest him at the request of the US and refuse to treat him like anything other than an American tourist. I'd say they did all that could be expected of them. > Snowden put HK in a very tough position this is literally the best way they could get the US off their backs. I think you might be overestimating how much HK & China care about what the US wants. The US isn't in a position to dictate policy to Beijing.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >For the past 10 days we have been hearing non-stop reports of the infamous extradition process that will drag on for 10-15 years in HK, That was an optimistic assessment, best case. Either Snowden has received advice leading him to reconsider his course of action, and/or HK has expressed to him that they are not confident in their ability to, or haven't the will to resist the US/China in a diplomatic battle over his extradition, or maybe they just aren't confident that they can assure his safety. If one of the latter is the case then it is gracious of them to provide an opportunity for Snowden to leave unmolested.
return0 13y ago
Its sad that european governments dont step up support and asylum for snowden. After all the surveillance scandal affects mostly non-US citizens, with countries like germany being targeted specifically. If this guy did such a service for us, why are we not actively protecting him the way we protect chinese dissidents?
- binderbizingdos 13y ago
  don't you realize that the european governments are very much under US influence still? US = good, China and Russia etc. = bad
- corford 13y ago
  Unfortunately, the answer can be summed up in one sentence: The US has Europe by the balls. Not a very eloquent way to put it but it's true.
vbtemp 13y ago
> He's a patriot Daniel Ellsberg is a patriot. Edward Snowden crossed the line a long time ago when he fled to China to reveal more than domestic surveillance but foreign intelligence activities. I'm probably just as indignant as you are about the domestic surveillance, but the activities of Snowden started out as patriotism, but very quickly crossed into defection. tldr - champions of human rights don't flee to china & russia. Those places are where defecting spies go.
- tomp 13y ago
  They barely have any other choice than to choose a non-US-friendly country that cannot be bullied into extraditing them.
- danbruc 13y ago
  Edward Snowden crossed the line a long time ago when [...] [he] reveal[ed] more than domestic surveillance but foreign intelligence activities. Foreign intelligence activities are not necessarily legal and I am pretty sure quite a few of the revealed NSA foreign intelligence activities are illegal. This whole US-citizens-vs-foreign-country-citizens-thing really pisses my off - people are people no matter where they live. Spying at them without suspicion is illegal. And even if it would not be illegal it would still be wrong.
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  Wikipedia: "Ellsberg also shared the documents with New York Times correspondent Neil Sheehan under a pledge of confidentiality. Sheehan broke his promise to Ellsberg, and built a scoop around what he'd received both directly from Ellsberg and from contacts at IPS." No, Ellsberg got duped. He also went into hiding afterwards (although briefly). He never deliberately put it all on the line. Snowden made this information public and shortly thereafter admitted to it -- knowing full well that it would end his life as he knew it. That's the act of a patriot.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Get trolled much? HK isn't exactly the seat of the Chinese politburo. The fact that the guy needs to go to avail himself of un-friendly-ish hospitality such as flights through Moscow and Cuba ought to tell you something about nature of our government's conduct; or at least Ed Snowden's opinion of it. I can't fault him for expecting the worst. It underscores the need for nations to maintain their sovereignty and independence from the US. It ought to be possible to travel in the world against the wishes of any one country, or cartel of allies. >I'm probably just as indignant as you are about the domestic surveillance No, you aren't. Snowden hasn't (doesn't appear to have) revealed conduct that other governments were unaware of. Most of these thing have been leaked before. He's merely outed that conduct publicly, at a time when the press was under attack from the DOJ. If it weren't for that fact, and or maybe his flight from the US, I suspect we may not even still be talking about any of this. tl;dr Don't be trollbait.
mehwoot 13y ago
More like they wanted absolutely nothing to do with any of this, and just let him get on the plane whilst panning off whatever excuse they could think of ("um.. your paperwork isn't in order"). They really didn't want to have to make a decision about anything, and now they won't.
pekk 13y ago
Question: when does dumping secrets of the US stop being patriotic?
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >Question: when does exposing secret crimes of the US stop being patriotic? Never? >Question: when does dumping secrets of the US stop being patriotic? When the US' conduct approaches the conduct it professes?
- cheald 13y ago
  When the disclosure of those secrets actively harms the citizens of the United States. I maintain that Snowden had engaged in activity that is beneficial to the citizens of his country, and to the ideals of the Constitution of his country, and is therefore very deserving of the title of "patriot".

nthj 13y ago

> I'm a US citizen and I'm pro-US and this bullshit has to stop. FTFY

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
Agreed.

seferphier 13y ago

HK just dodged a bullet. this was the most strategically sound thing to do. HK govt would just listen to the officials in China on this matter. In the same time, it has to respect the judicial system (if he applies to be asylum seeker). A very careful line must be struck between the two.

lostlogin 13y ago
Great comment on the awkwardness of their situation. A bullet it was not, however. It would have been slow, protracted and very painful. There are some happy officials, feeling 10 years older but having a celebratory drink I'm sure.

reinhardt 13y ago

Best part was the closing: "Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong."

simonbarker87 13y ago
I laughed out loud at this bit. Translation "Maybe we would have helped but seeing as you're monitoring our networks without our say so - we won't"
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Or, alternatively, "You jerks have a lot of nerve, expecting favors from us after being caught with your hands in our pockets."
  - samstave 13y ago
    "But... but.. I was getting this cookie for you!!"
malandrew 13y ago
I'm curious if this is going to happen with every country he visits. I really wouldn't be surprised if he has documents for transgressions made by the NSA against every country on his list of places to go. For every alliance we have won with diplomacy, it only takes an act of espionage to act as the fire that burns it down. I'm all in favor of espionage, but only against companies we are actively hostile with. I'm really curious if he is going to produce damning evidence of deep, active, ongoing espionage against any of the other four of the five eyes (Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand).
- malandrew 13y ago
  oops. meant "countries" not "companies"

npalli 13y ago

>>My opinion of the HK SAR, which has always been quite high, just went up a couple of notches. How so? For the past 10 days we have been hearing non-stop reports of the infamous extradition process that will drag on for 10-15 years in HK, providing asylum to Snowden. Turns out a mere day after espionage case was filed Snowden is allowed to leave HK. Do you seriously believe Snowden thought, wow it was great living in HK for 10 days but now I need to go to Venezuela or Cuba (via Russia) since they are havens of freedom and human rights? Snowden put HK in a very tough position this is literally the best way they could get the US off their backs. The strong language in the press release is all show, look at what people do not what they say.

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
> For the past 10 days we have been hearing non-stop reports of the infamous extradition process that will drag on for 10-15 years in HK Have we? I didn't read those. I also didn't expect HK to grant asylum and I don't think there's any precedent for a US citizen seeking asylum in or being extradited (or not) from HK. HK's track record with asylum seekers isn't that great (around 10% are granted asylum) and the bulk of those cases involve people from the region. HK doesn't have its own laws in place regarding asylum seekers and instead defers to the UNHRC for those decisions. Did Snowden leave HK because they asked him to? I don't think there's any evidence of that. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) What they did do is refuse to arrest him at the request of the US and refuse to treat him like anything other than an American tourist. I'd say they did all that could be expected of them. > Snowden put HK in a very tough position this is literally the best way they could get the US off their backs. I think you might be overestimating how much HK & China care about what the US wants. The US isn't in a position to dictate policy to Beijing.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>For the past 10 days we have been hearing non-stop reports of the infamous extradition process that will drag on for 10-15 years in HK, That was an optimistic assessment, best case. Either Snowden has received advice leading him to reconsider his course of action, and/or HK has expressed to him that they are not confident in their ability to, or haven't the will to resist the US/China in a diplomatic battle over his extradition, or maybe they just aren't confident that they can assure his safety. If one of the latter is the case then it is gracious of them to provide an opportunity for Snowden to leave unmolested.

return0 13y ago

Its sad that european governments dont step up support and asylum for snowden. After all the surveillance scandal affects mostly non-US citizens, with countries like germany being targeted specifically. If this guy did such a service for us, why are we not actively protecting him the way we protect chinese dissidents?

binderbizingdos 13y ago
don't you realize that the european governments are very much under US influence still? US = good, China and Russia etc. = bad
corford 13y ago
Unfortunately, the answer can be summed up in one sentence: The US has Europe by the balls. Not a very eloquent way to put it but it's true.

vbtemp 13y ago

> He's a patriot Daniel Ellsberg is a patriot. Edward Snowden crossed the line a long time ago when he fled to China to reveal more than domestic surveillance but foreign intelligence activities. I'm probably just as indignant as you are about the domestic surveillance, but the activities of Snowden started out as patriotism, but very quickly crossed into defection. tldr - champions of human rights don't flee to china & russia. Those places are where defecting spies go.

tomp 13y ago
They barely have any other choice than to choose a non-US-friendly country that cannot be bullied into extraditing them.
danbruc 13y ago
Edward Snowden crossed the line a long time ago when [...] [he] reveal[ed] more than domestic surveillance but foreign intelligence activities. Foreign intelligence activities are not necessarily legal and I am pretty sure quite a few of the revealed NSA foreign intelligence activities are illegal. This whole US-citizens-vs-foreign-country-citizens-thing really pisses my off - people are people no matter where they live. Spying at them without suspicion is illegal. And even if it would not be illegal it would still be wrong.
mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
Wikipedia: "Ellsberg also shared the documents with New York Times correspondent Neil Sheehan under a pledge of confidentiality. Sheehan broke his promise to Ellsberg, and built a scoop around what he'd received both directly from Ellsberg and from contacts at IPS." No, Ellsberg got duped. He also went into hiding afterwards (although briefly). He never deliberately put it all on the line. Snowden made this information public and shortly thereafter admitted to it -- knowing full well that it would end his life as he knew it. That's the act of a patriot.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Get trolled much? HK isn't exactly the seat of the Chinese politburo. The fact that the guy needs to go to avail himself of un-friendly-ish hospitality such as flights through Moscow and Cuba ought to tell you something about nature of our government's conduct; or at least Ed Snowden's opinion of it. I can't fault him for expecting the worst. It underscores the need for nations to maintain their sovereignty and independence from the US. It ought to be possible to travel in the world against the wishes of any one country, or cartel of allies. >I'm probably just as indignant as you are about the domestic surveillance No, you aren't. Snowden hasn't (doesn't appear to have) revealed conduct that other governments were unaware of. Most of these thing have been leaked before. He's merely outed that conduct publicly, at a time when the press was under attack from the DOJ. If it weren't for that fact, and or maybe his flight from the US, I suspect we may not even still be talking about any of this. tl;dr Don't be trollbait.

mehwoot 13y ago

More like they wanted absolutely nothing to do with any of this, and just let him get on the plane whilst panning off whatever excuse they could think of ("um.. your paperwork isn't in order"). They really didn't want to have to make a decision about anything, and now they won't.

pekk 13y ago

Question: when does dumping secrets of the US stop being patriotic?

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>Question: when does exposing secret crimes of the US stop being patriotic? Never? >Question: when does dumping secrets of the US stop being patriotic? When the US' conduct approaches the conduct it professes?
cheald 13y ago
When the disclosure of those secrets actively harms the citizens of the United States. I maintain that Snowden had engaged in activity that is beneficial to the citizens of his country, and to the ideals of the Constitution of his country, and is therefore very deserving of the title of "patriot".