7 ms·

It is interesting to read the commentary here. Some of you here are US citizens. You do realize that you are supporting a person, who is basically a foreign age

by kghose 13y ago

It is interesting to read the commentary here. Some of you here are US citizens. You do realize that you are supporting a person, who is basically a foreign agent and now a pawn in the hands of two foreign powers who themselves engage in cyber attacks all over the world. However, your responses are not new or novel. During the second world war the Nazi government took anti-war protests in the US to mean that public opinion was firmly against any intervention. What they did not count on was the fickleness of public opinion. I suspect many of you here will, in case a real war breaks out, be heading for a recruiting station. People are funny things.

pavs 13y ago
You suspect wrong, I would suggest to re-read history without pro-us-government prism (heh).
fleitz 13y ago
Snowden is Casablanca, the Chinese are now shocked that America would hack them. You think a low-level sysop is really revealing stuff the Chinese didn't know?
- kghose 13y ago
  No, but he is a propaganda pawn.
  - fleitz 13y ago
    I didn't realize starting 2 wars, summarily executing children, and running torture camps was a feel good PR campaign. In that light I guess Snowden will be a major detriment to US public relations worldwide.
    - kghose 13y ago
      No, but that is not what Snowden is being used to say. Snowden is being used as part of a propaganda war re: US espionage by a country (China) which itself has expansionist ambitions and itself has a well developed cyber espionage/war machine.
Svip 13y ago
Well, the Germans were quite terrible at predicting public opinion in other countries during both world wars.[0] So I won't use this as a precedence or an excellent example of your point. In their defence, however, I'd argue that the American public was against intervention before Pearl Harbor. Still, should have been predicting that one as well. Lastly, I doubt a conventional war is about to break out. I doubt either side is interested in a war of this size. And besides; a world war the Germans didn't start?! [0] Examples of German diplomacy at its finest: Japan in August 1914, the Zimmermann Telegram and U-boat raids in the Atlantic (during both world wars prior to US entry).
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
zxcdw 13y ago
How does person's citizenship matter in their views? Is it nationalism a.k.a. "our rights are more important than theirs"? When you think of something like that, how can you morally justify it? You can't. Nationalism is irrational. What Snowden has showed is that USG has been commited in acts which are illegal for mere mortals to commit. Somehow NSA is all good doing this though -- on what moral grounds? Who can honestly claim that its not morally shady to put governmental instiutions above the law, and let it violate the rights of foreigners who have absolutely no power against it, not even the slight bit of political power via voting? Somehow acts against them is all easy to accept without evaluating the ethics, after all they Chinese are some commies and "idk lol". How is military surveillance reasoned during peace time and when it targets civilians? The fact that "others do it too" is no justification.
jmtame 13y ago
False dichotomy. To support privacy and an American whistleblower does not mean you're supporting a war or any type of foreign conflict simultaneously. Nobody here is supporting a war or encouraging conflict. We support transparency and our own constitutional right to privacy. If anything, the sentiment here is admiration for Hong Kong's response and their willingness to let one of our own go freely.
kinghajj 13y ago
Not me. Anti-nationalist, anarchist, and pacifist.
spitx 13y ago
What did you expect here, other than being down-voted, for making some sense or offering an alternate view of things? You are speaking to the "Me Me Me Generation" as Joel Stein puts it. "Lazy, entitled, selfish and shallow." Snowden is the poster child for this generation. "A narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us", as Bob Schieffer called him. The only thing that separates this generation of whistle blowers, if they were to take after Snowden, from the previous ones would be their insincerity of purpose and a distinct lack of selflessness. Instead of being lauded for standing firm and facing consequences they will be known for their penchant for fleeing and bolting to foreign lands that they find hospitable to their ill-thought-out missions. Character and how its reflected doesn't change with the times. On occasion, history fails to take note of certain heroes. However it also tells us that cowards have never brought about ground swells or changed human events. Source: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ
- vidarh 13y ago
  The ones whose character should be questioned are the ones who stay at agencies like the NSA, being either too cowardly to release documents or even just get out, or who are staying because they agree with the policies. The ludicrous idea of calling someone who has just given up the chance of a normal life for years to come, maybe forever, "lazy, entitled and shallow" is something that takes a substantial disconnect from reality to come up with.
  - spitx 13y ago
    This is Bill Clinton - whose spouse, from all accounts, will most likely be running for the office of President in 2016 - on NSA Security Leaks and Snowden. "I don't see any alternative to trying to track all these groups around the world who are trying to wreck the ordinary operations of life in America and probably kill a lot of people. I am not persuaded that they (NSA) have done more harm than good" Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-JdjIxjeUs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-JdjIxjeUs
charonn0 13y ago
I call Godwin's law.
tome 13y ago
I don't think your comment deserved the merciless level of downvotes it received. I too personally find it strange that leaks about US activities against foreign powers are receiving as much support as leaks about US activities against its own citizens.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  As an American citizen, I feel it is of paramount importance to know what "our" government is doing in our name. Especially since a lot of it seems to be poorly considered, unethical, and somewhat intended to benefit a few at the expense of the many.
  - tome 13y ago
    Yes, this is a strong counter point.
- lhnz 13y ago
  It's indiscriminate information gathering behind closed doors. I'm not a US citizen but I am a UK one. My government is allegedly doing far worse. Look - the fact is, this guy publicised some information supposedly politically beneficial to a foreign power [0] and this happened hours before he left Hong Kong unscathed. Looking at what has been done to Bradley Manning I think you would have to be fairly ignorant to expect anything different if he had not done this. What Snowden has done is pro-freedom, pro-individual-privacy and anti-government-secrecy. Even if you are not courageous enough to do so yourself, you should be glad that there are still people willing to risk themselves for the values that made your country the greatest in the world. It honestly seems like you rationalise against it for some reason? Without people willing to make a stand you are on the way to total corruption; the few will benefit and the mass will lose. And then your only option to regaining power will be revolution and blood-shed. [0] I would assume that the Chinese government would have been well aware about this already due to having their own spies. (I wonder how many foreign powers had direct access to Prism?) All it has allowed is sabre-rattling due to redefining the public space.
  - 13y ago

by kghose 13y ago

pavs 13y ago

You suspect wrong, I would suggest to re-read history without pro-us-government prism (heh).

fleitz 13y ago

Snowden is Casablanca, the Chinese are now shocked that America would hack them. You think a low-level sysop is really revealing stuff the Chinese didn't know?

kghose 13y ago
No, but he is a propaganda pawn.
- fleitz 13y ago
  I didn't realize starting 2 wars, summarily executing children, and running torture camps was a feel good PR campaign. In that light I guess Snowden will be a major detriment to US public relations worldwide.
  - kghose 13y ago
    No, but that is not what Snowden is being used to say. Snowden is being used as part of a propaganda war re: US espionage by a country (China) which itself has expansionist ambitions and itself has a well developed cyber espionage/war machine.

Svip 13y ago

Well, the Germans were quite terrible at predicting public opinion in other countries during both world wars.[0] So I won't use this as a precedence or an excellent example of your point. In their defence, however, I'd argue that the American public was against intervention before Pearl Harbor. Still, should have been predicting that one as well. Lastly, I doubt a conventional war is about to break out. I doubt either side is interested in a war of this size. And besides; a world war the Germans didn't start?! [0] Examples of German diplomacy at its finest: Japan in August 1914, the Zimmermann Telegram and U-boat raids in the Atlantic (during both world wars prior to US entry).

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

zxcdw 13y ago

How does person's citizenship matter in their views? Is it nationalism a.k.a. "our rights are more important than theirs"? When you think of something like that, how can you morally justify it? You can't. Nationalism is irrational. What Snowden has showed is that USG has been commited in acts which are illegal for mere mortals to commit. Somehow NSA is all good doing this though -- on what moral grounds? Who can honestly claim that its not morally shady to put governmental instiutions above the law, and let it violate the rights of foreigners who have absolutely no power against it, not even the slight bit of political power via voting? Somehow acts against them is all easy to accept without evaluating the ethics, after all they Chinese are some commies and "idk lol". How is military surveillance reasoned during peace time and when it targets civilians? The fact that "others do it too" is no justification.

jmtame 13y ago

False dichotomy. To support privacy and an American whistleblower does not mean you're supporting a war or any type of foreign conflict simultaneously. Nobody here is supporting a war or encouraging conflict. We support transparency and our own constitutional right to privacy. If anything, the sentiment here is admiration for Hong Kong's response and their willingness to let one of our own go freely.

kinghajj 13y ago

Not me. Anti-nationalist, anarchist, and pacifist.

spitx 13y ago

What did you expect here, other than being down-voted, for making some sense or offering an alternate view of things? You are speaking to the "Me Me Me Generation" as Joel Stein puts it. "Lazy, entitled, selfish and shallow." Snowden is the poster child for this generation. "A narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us", as Bob Schieffer called him. The only thing that separates this generation of whistle blowers, if they were to take after Snowden, from the previous ones would be their insincerity of purpose and a distinct lack of selflessness. Instead of being lauded for standing firm and facing consequences they will be known for their penchant for fleeing and bolting to foreign lands that they find hospitable to their ill-thought-out missions. Character and how its reflected doesn't change with the times. On occasion, history fails to take note of certain heroes. However it also tells us that cowards have never brought about ground swells or changed human events. Source: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2143001,00.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ

vidarh 13y ago
The ones whose character should be questioned are the ones who stay at agencies like the NSA, being either too cowardly to release documents or even just get out, or who are staying because they agree with the policies. The ludicrous idea of calling someone who has just given up the chance of a normal life for years to come, maybe forever, "lazy, entitled and shallow" is something that takes a substantial disconnect from reality to come up with.
- spitx 13y ago
  This is Bill Clinton - whose spouse, from all accounts, will most likely be running for the office of President in 2016 - on NSA Security Leaks and Snowden. "I don't see any alternative to trying to track all these groups around the world who are trying to wreck the ordinary operations of life in America and probably kill a lot of people. I am not persuaded that they (NSA) have done more harm than good" Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-JdjIxjeUs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-JdjIxjeUs

charonn0 13y ago

I call Godwin's law.

tome 13y ago

I don't think your comment deserved the merciless level of downvotes it received. I too personally find it strange that leaks about US activities against foreign powers are receiving as much support as leaks about US activities against its own citizens.

wavefunction 13y ago
As an American citizen, I feel it is of paramount importance to know what "our" government is doing in our name. Especially since a lot of it seems to be poorly considered, unethical, and somewhat intended to benefit a few at the expense of the many.
- tome 13y ago
  Yes, this is a strong counter point.
lhnz 13y ago
It's indiscriminate information gathering behind closed doors. I'm not a US citizen but I am a UK one. My government is allegedly doing far worse. Look - the fact is, this guy publicised some information supposedly politically beneficial to a foreign power [0] and this happened hours before he left Hong Kong unscathed. Looking at what has been done to Bradley Manning I think you would have to be fairly ignorant to expect anything different if he had not done this. What Snowden has done is pro-freedom, pro-individual-privacy and anti-government-secrecy. Even if you are not courageous enough to do so yourself, you should be glad that there are still people willing to risk themselves for the values that made your country the greatest in the world. It honestly seems like you rationalise against it for some reason? Without people willing to make a stand you are on the way to total corruption; the few will benefit and the mass will lose. And then your only option to regaining power will be revolution and blood-shed. [0] I would assume that the Chinese government would have been well aware about this already due to having their own spies. (I wonder how many foreign powers had direct access to Prism?) All it has allowed is sabre-rattling due to redefining the public space.
- 13y ago