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Snowden running is not something to be confused with an admission of guilt, but at the same time, it does prove that he is not a patriot. With his worldwide rec

by h4pless 13y ago

Snowden running is not something to be confused with an admission of guilt, but at the same time, it does prove that he is not a patriot. With his worldwide recognition: the safest course would be for him to publicly turn himself in to a US police station or deliver himself to a courtroom. He would have a very public trial and would have an even farther reaching message in this country. By running he shows that he has no faith in this country and no longer considers himself a citizen. Not only that but he opens himself up to a ridiculous amount of risk by being wide open in foreign countries where things are semi-expected to happen to travelers by this country. If something happens to him while he's in the legal system of this country, the people responsible for him would be crucified by the media and everyone else. Granted he could be silenced and have his reputation destroyed by the media while incarcerated in this country but I believe a patriot works with the system or fights within it, only a coward runs.

infinity0 13y ago
爱国不爱党 loving one's country is not the same as loving one's government.
- h4pless 13y ago
  Thanks for the reply. I appreciate feedback over a superficial down-vote. However I don't understand how I suggested that being a patriot is loving one's government.
  - infinity0 13y ago
    I didn't down-vote you, I'm too new for that. :p (edit: not that I would have down-voted you, I agree with the comment in your other thread that this silent down-voting is harmful) You suggested that in order to be patriotic he should have stayed behind to face justice, administered by the same government whose "checks and balances" have so far failed to prevent the thing he's protesting. Why take his chances? Would you call a Chinese dissident unpatriotic for leaving China? (perhaps I should have given a more specific translation rather than a literal one, you can read "trusting the government" instead of "loving". short Chinese phrases have a lot of leeway in meaning which is usually implied from the context)
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - h4pless 13y ago
      Thanks again infinity0, I did not mean to suggest that he should stay behind to face the justice system which could be corrupt, I meant to say that he should stay behind and trust himself to the American populous, a lot of which considers him a hero. When you are travelling around and running from something, things can happen. I've had a few friends die/be murdered while travelling in foreign countries so I have a personal reason to sort of understand when something happens or somebody dies while travelling. But at large in this country people have seen Taken or Hostel or some other anti-traveling movie that has conditioned them to think that travelling in inherently unsafe. By travelling you open yourself up to whoopsie-daisy style deaths in which it is just understood that you died because you were being incompetent in some fashion. In the American legal system however, the jail which you are held in is responsible for your well being. And with somebody as high-profile as Ed Snowden, if something were to happen to him while he was in jail, everyone would know about it and some people would have to answer questions. And if he were convicted of espionage while he was staying in this country, 1) His charges as a spy wouldn't make sense because it would be understood that he still considered himself a US citizen so he would have nobody to be accused to be spying for aside from the people of the US and 2) if he was convicted, imprisoned, executed or whatever could be the case, the laws and the legal system that did it would be under immense scrutiny by the ACLU, the EFF and anyone else the actions pissed off and would probably face extremely harsh repercussions.
      - infinity0 13y ago
        "Movement is life" - Brad Pitt's character in World War Z :p Bradley Manning has been tortured and there has not been outrage on the level that would be enough to protect him. When Edward Snowden blew the whistle, he had no reason to think that he would have been more successful. Perhaps you would have done differently, but at this point I think it boils down to personal differences in evaluating a situation, so I wouldn't go as far to claim he is unpatriotic.
        13y ago
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
Joeri 13y ago
He can't deliver himself to a courtroom because he knows he would be found guilty. Just like bradley manning he clearly and obviously broke the law and has no recourse but to plead guilty and get sent to jail (or to his death, but they wouldn't do that as it would make a martyr out of him). The issue is not whether he would be convicted, because surely he would be, it's whether the laws are just to begin with. OK, maybe he could have gone to prison "nelson mandela"-style to be a symbol of a movement, but I don't think it's an act of cowardice if you don't quite live up to that ideal. There is a huge gap between being a hero and being a coward. In Snowden's own words he is neither (just by revealing what he revealed he has already imprisoned himself to a degree).
- h4pless 13y ago
  Hey thanks for replying, I agree that he would easily be found guilty of the charges if he were to present himself to a courtroom. But what I was trying to suggest was that if he admitted himself to the court system, and was found guilty, there is a much larger chance that there would be a lot more question as to whether or not the law was just (not to mention that if he stayed in country, espionage charges would make a lot less sense). By running, he invites the comparison to being a spy. It will be a major talking point in the news to come. And it's generally unsafe. If he is still alive and well, he opens himself up to a lot of mortal vulnerability by travelling. I wasn't trying to say that he wasn't a hero. In fact I think him one of sorts. I was just trying to say that he wasn't a patriot. A patriot does not fight against his country from a foreign country or abandon his land. I just believe that there is a major difference between being a patriot and being a national hero.
  - aroberge 13y ago
    Anyone seeing what happened to Manning would be insane to turn themselves in to the US.
    - nhangen 13y ago
      Manning violated military law, which is fat different than our civilian laws.
michaelbuddy 13y ago
you're wrong, but whatever I guess. shall I tell you why? if you want to call out patriotism, you can justify Snowden as more of a patriot than anyone else in the NSA. Because if they are lying and disobeying the constitution, only a true patriot would speak out against it. The other thing is. When he did his whistle blowing story, he had left the U.S., but wasn't charged at that point. But in his mind, he could do the most good by not sitting in a jail cell. A coward? Whatever man. He's probably not afraid of being tortured or killed in prison. More like the endless boredom and how hopeless it would be. I totally understand why he would prefer to leave. Especially if he thinks it's a lost battle, The constitution I mean. It may well be.
insuffi 13y ago
While I can see the point you're trying to make - give himself in for the sake of publicity, I also think you are making very far-fetched conclusions. 1)Running away from certain prosecution is not unpatriotic. He is a patriot of his country, not of his government. If they jailed him, he wouldn't be allowed to do anything to change the course of the trial(see Bradley Manning). 2) The government has already proved that it will go against the public opinion by officially charging him with espionage and treason. If they have not started doing damage control up until now, why should they after they jail him?
- h4pless 13y ago
  Hey insuffi, Thanks for the reply. To your response: 1) I am not trying to say that he should have stayed in the country to begin with necessarily because his act could obviously be construed as treason and be silenced immediately if jailed. I was also not trying to suggest that he is not a hero to this country (because by many accounts, he is) but rather I was trying to suggest that a patriot does not abandon the country to which he claims patriotism [because that would be completely illogical]. Now, Snowden is a very public international figure. If he were jailed, people would be watching his case very closely. Snowden's situation is different from Bradley Manning's because when a judgement is made, everyone will care because he did in fact give himself enough time to find refuge in another country and spread a full story and reveal himself to the world. He is now a popular culture figure for many countries. However, the reason he invites claims of espionage is that he claims refuge in other countries. A patriot does not need to turn himself over to the government but must turn himself over to the people of the united states. By running he only makes himself appear more guilty in many people's minds. And by running he also opens himself up to a lot of conjecture as to why he's running. 2) The government is doing damage control by charging him. They have an unanswered opinion that can be broadcast to most of the country because he is fleeing (this old adage still applies to many people: An innocent man has nothing to hide). He is ruining his patriotic reputation by running from the country because he is giving everyone a chance to step back and insight any opinion they may about his patriotism, mental stability or really anything. As a patriot I would agree he is justly afraid. But what I meant to suggest that by running, he is proving himself as a saboteur or spy to people who agree with many media streams and is leaving many things up to justifiable question.
seclorum 13y ago
Right, because the United States justice system works so well when its (the US) ass is on the line. Just ask this guy: http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/06/21/top-us-journalistmichael-hastings-assassinated-while-attempting-to-reach-israeli-consulate-assassinated-by-sorcha-faal/ http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/06/21/top-us-journ...
- h4pless 13y ago
  This was a man who was running before facing a trial or even charges. Not a man in the justice system. Who knows what really happened to him? Nobody. Because he was being secretive about his actions. He has allowed nothing but conjecture to his fate. I have been under investigation by the FBI; it doesn't mean they're going to kill you.
  - seclorum 13y ago
    Just the fact that the US President can order an extra-judicial killing of any US citizen, if he deems it fit, should be enough to raise your ire, citizen. With such tyranny allowed, justice is no longer possible in US society.
- dubyah 13y ago
  How on earth is that in any way credible? Most of the article is predicate on exacting details from a supposed GRU report that is never shown and doesn't seem to exist anywhere else aside from regurgitation from whatdoesitmean.com. If he was travelling to the Israeli Consulate, he should have turned west at Santa Monica / Highland and stayed there most of the way. Instead he was traveling perpendicular by going south on Highland (spotted on the dashcam at Santa Monica / Highland and crashed south of Melrose / Highland). Roadwise, that takes him further away from the consulate, not closer. Even as an alternate route, he should have taken Sunset, which still would have meant going north or west from that point instead of south. I also like how the article is so resolute on how there is no impact damage and how it had to have been hit by a drone / missile when the video and eyewitnesses say otherwise. I liked his work and am sad that he is gone, but how is a drone strike more plausible than him possibly falling off the wagon and drunkenly crashing his car, which by his own admission, he's done before?

by h4pless 13y ago

infinity0 13y ago

爱国不爱党 loving one's country is not the same as loving one's government.

h4pless 13y ago
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate feedback over a superficial down-vote. However I don't understand how I suggested that being a patriot is loving one's government.
- infinity0 13y ago
  I didn't down-vote you, I'm too new for that. :p (edit: not that I would have down-voted you, I agree with the comment in your other thread that this silent down-voting is harmful) You suggested that in order to be patriotic he should have stayed behind to face justice, administered by the same government whose "checks and balances" have so far failed to prevent the thing he's protesting. Why take his chances? Would you call a Chinese dissident unpatriotic for leaving China? (perhaps I should have given a more specific translation rather than a literal one, you can read "trusting the government" instead of "loving". short Chinese phrases have a lot of leeway in meaning which is usually implied from the context)
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - h4pless 13y ago
    Thanks again infinity0, I did not mean to suggest that he should stay behind to face the justice system which could be corrupt, I meant to say that he should stay behind and trust himself to the American populous, a lot of which considers him a hero. When you are travelling around and running from something, things can happen. I've had a few friends die/be murdered while travelling in foreign countries so I have a personal reason to sort of understand when something happens or somebody dies while travelling. But at large in this country people have seen Taken or Hostel or some other anti-traveling movie that has conditioned them to think that travelling in inherently unsafe. By travelling you open yourself up to whoopsie-daisy style deaths in which it is just understood that you died because you were being incompetent in some fashion. In the American legal system however, the jail which you are held in is responsible for your well being. And with somebody as high-profile as Ed Snowden, if something were to happen to him while he was in jail, everyone would know about it and some people would have to answer questions. And if he were convicted of espionage while he was staying in this country, 1) His charges as a spy wouldn't make sense because it would be understood that he still considered himself a US citizen so he would have nobody to be accused to be spying for aside from the people of the US and 2) if he was convicted, imprisoned, executed or whatever could be the case, the laws and the legal system that did it would be under immense scrutiny by the ACLU, the EFF and anyone else the actions pissed off and would probably face extremely harsh repercussions.
    - infinity0 13y ago
      "Movement is life" - Brad Pitt's character in World War Z :p Bradley Manning has been tortured and there has not been outrage on the level that would be enough to protect him. When Edward Snowden blew the whistle, he had no reason to think that he would have been more successful. Perhaps you would have done differently, but at this point I think it boils down to personal differences in evaluating a situation, so I wouldn't go as far to claim he is unpatriotic.
      - 13y ago
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

Joeri 13y ago

He can't deliver himself to a courtroom because he knows he would be found guilty. Just like bradley manning he clearly and obviously broke the law and has no recourse but to plead guilty and get sent to jail (or to his death, but they wouldn't do that as it would make a martyr out of him). The issue is not whether he would be convicted, because surely he would be, it's whether the laws are just to begin with. OK, maybe he could have gone to prison "nelson mandela"-style to be a symbol of a movement, but I don't think it's an act of cowardice if you don't quite live up to that ideal. There is a huge gap between being a hero and being a coward. In Snowden's own words he is neither (just by revealing what he revealed he has already imprisoned himself to a degree).

h4pless 13y ago
Hey thanks for replying, I agree that he would easily be found guilty of the charges if he were to present himself to a courtroom. But what I was trying to suggest was that if he admitted himself to the court system, and was found guilty, there is a much larger chance that there would be a lot more question as to whether or not the law was just (not to mention that if he stayed in country, espionage charges would make a lot less sense). By running, he invites the comparison to being a spy. It will be a major talking point in the news to come. And it's generally unsafe. If he is still alive and well, he opens himself up to a lot of mortal vulnerability by travelling. I wasn't trying to say that he wasn't a hero. In fact I think him one of sorts. I was just trying to say that he wasn't a patriot. A patriot does not fight against his country from a foreign country or abandon his land. I just believe that there is a major difference between being a patriot and being a national hero.
- aroberge 13y ago
  Anyone seeing what happened to Manning would be insane to turn themselves in to the US.
  - nhangen 13y ago
    Manning violated military law, which is fat different than our civilian laws.

michaelbuddy 13y ago

you're wrong, but whatever I guess. shall I tell you why? if you want to call out patriotism, you can justify Snowden as more of a patriot than anyone else in the NSA. Because if they are lying and disobeying the constitution, only a true patriot would speak out against it. The other thing is. When he did his whistle blowing story, he had left the U.S., but wasn't charged at that point. But in his mind, he could do the most good by not sitting in a jail cell. A coward? Whatever man. He's probably not afraid of being tortured or killed in prison. More like the endless boredom and how hopeless it would be. I totally understand why he would prefer to leave. Especially if he thinks it's a lost battle, The constitution I mean. It may well be.

insuffi 13y ago

While I can see the point you're trying to make - give himself in for the sake of publicity, I also think you are making very far-fetched conclusions. 1)Running away from certain prosecution is not unpatriotic. He is a patriot of his country, not of his government. If they jailed him, he wouldn't be allowed to do anything to change the course of the trial(see Bradley Manning). 2) The government has already proved that it will go against the public opinion by officially charging him with espionage and treason. If they have not started doing damage control up until now, why should they after they jail him?

h4pless 13y ago
Hey insuffi, Thanks for the reply. To your response: 1) I am not trying to say that he should have stayed in the country to begin with necessarily because his act could obviously be construed as treason and be silenced immediately if jailed. I was also not trying to suggest that he is not a hero to this country (because by many accounts, he is) but rather I was trying to suggest that a patriot does not abandon the country to which he claims patriotism [because that would be completely illogical]. Now, Snowden is a very public international figure. If he were jailed, people would be watching his case very closely. Snowden's situation is different from Bradley Manning's because when a judgement is made, everyone will care because he did in fact give himself enough time to find refuge in another country and spread a full story and reveal himself to the world. He is now a popular culture figure for many countries. However, the reason he invites claims of espionage is that he claims refuge in other countries. A patriot does not need to turn himself over to the government but must turn himself over to the people of the united states. By running he only makes himself appear more guilty in many people's minds. And by running he also opens himself up to a lot of conjecture as to why he's running. 2) The government is doing damage control by charging him. They have an unanswered opinion that can be broadcast to most of the country because he is fleeing (this old adage still applies to many people: An innocent man has nothing to hide). He is ruining his patriotic reputation by running from the country because he is giving everyone a chance to step back and insight any opinion they may about his patriotism, mental stability or really anything. As a patriot I would agree he is justly afraid. But what I meant to suggest that by running, he is proving himself as a saboteur or spy to people who agree with many media streams and is leaving many things up to justifiable question.

seclorum 13y ago

Right, because the United States justice system works so well when its (the US) ass is on the line. Just ask this guy: http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/06/21/top-us-journalistmichael-hastings-assassinated-while-attempting-to-reach-israeli-consulate-assassinated-by-sorcha-faal/ http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/06/21/top-us-journ...

h4pless 13y ago
This was a man who was running before facing a trial or even charges. Not a man in the justice system. Who knows what really happened to him? Nobody. Because he was being secretive about his actions. He has allowed nothing but conjecture to his fate. I have been under investigation by the FBI; it doesn't mean they're going to kill you.
- seclorum 13y ago
  Just the fact that the US President can order an extra-judicial killing of any US citizen, if he deems it fit, should be enough to raise your ire, citizen. With such tyranny allowed, justice is no longer possible in US society.
dubyah 13y ago
How on earth is that in any way credible? Most of the article is predicate on exacting details from a supposed GRU report that is never shown and doesn't seem to exist anywhere else aside from regurgitation from whatdoesitmean.com. If he was travelling to the Israeli Consulate, he should have turned west at Santa Monica / Highland and stayed there most of the way. Instead he was traveling perpendicular by going south on Highland (spotted on the dashcam at Santa Monica / Highland and crashed south of Melrose / Highland). Roadwise, that takes him further away from the consulate, not closer. Even as an alternate route, he should have taken Sunset, which still would have meant going north or west from that point instead of south. I also like how the article is so resolute on how there is no impact damage and how it had to have been hit by a drone / missile when the video and eyewitnesses say otherwise. I liked his work and am sad that he is gone, but how is a drone strike more plausible than him possibly falling off the wagon and drunkenly crashing his car, which by his own admission, he's done before?