6 ms·

Demonstrations to protest NSA spying planned for July 4th

312 points by pvnick 13y ago

chrsstrm 13y ago
I know setting the date of most of these events to the 4th of July is very symbolic, but is that really the best choice? That is the one day that Americans already gather in large numbers to celebrate. In DC alone the entire national mall area and surrounding are gridlocked with people who come to see the fireworks. How would you be able to tell who is there protesting and who is there to celebrate? It seems like your protest message would easily be lost in the noise of the Fourth. Why not set it for the day before? 100,000+ people on the steps of the Capitol or in front of the White House on the evening of the 3rd would get much more coverage than doing anything on the 4th.
mtgx 13y ago
If Brazilians can create a 1 million strong protest over a 0.1$ bus fare increase, I'd hope Americans from the "land of the free, home of the brave" would be able to do the same over the revealing of a massive spying apparatus that's used against Americans and completely infringing on the 4th amendment. But even more importantly it's infringing on their human rights that should guarantee that they don't have to live in fear in a surveillance state and they have the right to anonymous speech or being able to have confidential conversations with people, without having to think that everything they say is being recorded by the government, and if if they even say the "wrong words" they may end up on certain "lists" that are monitored more heavily.
- notdrunkatall 13y ago
  I hope for the same thing, but I suspect that I'm going to be disappointed.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Is the protest over the bus fare increase? I was always told it was merely the latest in a long string of events drawing in protesters. Likewise, didn't the group that incited protests over the bus fare increase later support ending the protests, since the protests are said to have been co-opted by militants and fascists? Likewise likewise, neither anonymous speech or confidential conversations have gone away (that is, where they were possible before). But you may have to choose to enforce that by technical means (a capability we didn't used to have, by the way, just ask people who lived in the age of letters and phone calls). Likewise^3, the prioritization of who would be monitored by warrant is certainly a legitimate function of the security apparatus, unless you're trying to claim that picking random conversations to get a warrant for is somehow more effective in breaking up terror cells or criminal conspiracies. I would argue that taking action against people merely for what they believe in is screwed up, but I not only wouldn't blame people for keeping a closer eye on those who advocate large changes to government, I'd be offended as a taxpayer if they weren't doing exactly that.
  - outworlder 13y ago
    > Is the protest over the bus fare increase? I was always told it was merely the latest in a long string of events drawing in protesters. Brazilian here, and you are right. The big protests started in one capital and not all capitals raised their fares, at least not recently. One week before that, in my city, we had thousands of protesters, who wanted something to be done about the violence (873 people were murdered by gunshot in the first quarter alone, out of a population of 2.5 million, giving over 60 per hundred thousand people). After the demonstrations in São Paulo, it spread like wildfire. Since not all cities have the same problems (at least, not in the same priority), the protesters had different agendas. But they were (and stil are) all over the country.
- Dn_Ab 13y ago
  The important bit is that the bus fares are completely irrelevant now. Most of my life I've thought that malaise amongst the oppressed was the stable state. But these protests suggest that is either wrong, or something has shifted the vocabulary of the dynamics from equilibrium to attractors. At least for a certain class of countries [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model#Self-organized_criticality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model#Self-org...] It remains to be seen if this has done anything to dampen the strong dystopian possibility of cross-national oligarchs whose members are large bureaucracies and whose mission is the status quo. And it is worth paying attention to these countries where broad abuses are not merely potential. Because if it is not possible to regain their rights, then it is all the more important to not ignore the currently well intended overreach of Lawful Good Paladins.
- diminoten 13y ago
  Heh, that's not fair, our country's population is more spread out, and our largest city is not our capital.
  - thwest 13y ago
    We have cars that can drive us to the central protest location, and Brasilia is only the fourth largest city in Brasil.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  Saying the Brazillian protests are about bus fares is like saying the Turkish protests are about a park. Your general point is good but your ignorance is getting in the way of communicating it effectively.
  - mtgx 13y ago
    But that's exactly the point. For Brazilians and Turkish people, those were the tipping points. Where is America's tipping point? Haven't Americans had enough of government corruption and abuses of power already? Confidence level in Congress is at the lowest levels ever. So where are the mass protests, in the land of the brave?
pvnick 13y ago
Glad to see HNers are excited about this. Shameless plug - if you live in or around Gainesville, FL, I encourage you to attend the one I'm organizing for my town: http://gatorsrestorethefourth.com http://gatorsrestorethefourth.com
oddball28 13y ago
This is just an opinion because my personal experience with protesting is null, but isn't the strategy of protesting in hundreds of communities ineffective? It's easy to ignore or contain 50-1000+ protesters [1][2] at some 600 locations (see Occupy Wall Street), whereas a centralized protest (maybe in DC?) of 70,000+[3] will hear their voices ringing across the world. It's easy to feel like your working together and making a difference with someone across the globe, but really to be heard you need to work together,as a team, in close proximity. Change isn't easy. [1] Wrong: http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/ows_gallery_1212/ows_gallery_05.jpg http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/ows_gallery_121... [2] Meh, street performers pull bigger crowds: http://media.syracuse.com/news/photo/10265946-large.jpg http://media.syracuse.com/news/photo/10265946-large.jpg [2] Here we go: http://wakingamericaup.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/i-have-a-dream-2.jpg http://wakingamericaup.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/i-have-a-...
- DougN7 13y ago
  I tend to agree. I thought protests were going to be focused in state capitals for that reason. Maybe I need to pay more attention :)
  - oddball28 13y ago
    I should add that: I don't think this idea is bad, it's great! And I certainly appreciate the organizers making the effort and taking the time to do this. I just fear for this cause sharing the same fate as OWS.
- lettergram 13y ago
  You're probably correct, however starting off, if you start with say 10 people protesting on a local public street you may get 10 new people to notice you. After a time you can double, triple, quadruple, etc. your numbers. Then go to DC with 70-100,000 and get attention.
  - oddball28 13y ago
    After giving this more thought, I agree. Large demonstrations don't happen over night, and it's necessary to start somewhere and gain traction, with the ultimate goal of snowballing into a large centralized demonstration. Maybe what's needed is an agenda that clearly works towards such a demonstration, one that's broken up into attainable goals/milestones. If demonstrators don't feel that they're continually making progress, they lose interest -- or maybe its hope that they lose. And at some point, you need strong leadership to reign in all the pieces.
aclevernickname 13y ago
Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I can't help but think this is the worst idea ever. You have a highly-strung government, watching everyone for signs of domestic terrorism, and then protest, which the government has considered an act of aggression since at least the Dubya administration. The only remedy we have in this country is lawsuits. Not class-actions, either; individual lawsuits for $500k each, for egregiously prejudicing your individual rights guaranteed by the constitution. ten thousand or so of those, with the president's name in all caps (head of the Unitary Executive) listed as the defendant. or, you know, you could try to make a well-regulated militia of 3D-printed pea shooters, so you can overthrow the largest and most heavily-armed military in the history of the world. that'll definitely work. Myself, I appreciate the disclosure I'm being given that Scott McNealy was right all those years ago when he said we have zero privacy anyway. The government has the right to do whatever they want with their property. if you use/are their property (isn't that ARPAnet thing US military property?), expect them to enforce their interest in that property. TL;DR for the downvoters (+6 to -2 in less than 20 minutes? hilarious): PROTEST BAD. LAWSUITS GOOD.
- LoganCale 13y ago
  The right to protest is Constitutionally protected. If the government is violating that right and treating peaceful protests as aggression against them, that's all the more reason to do it, to reassert our right.
  - aclevernickname 13y ago
    If you're gonna go the crazy route, leading you to dishonor and all that, at least serve the President individual notice of the rights you are reasserting before setting foot in that march, otherwise, you aren't giving him due process, and are actually prejudicing _his_ rights, giving him even more authority to treat you like an enemy. Thanks for the downvotes. perhaps you could combine them with a reply of why I'm wrong in my reasoning?
    - jsmcgd 13y ago
      Sarcasm will get you down voted.
w0ts0n 13y ago
Why is this US only?
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  There is no reason it has to be. However, invoking the 4th of July as part of the American public consciousness is not guaranteed to resonate with the wider world population.
temp1234567 13y ago
Just a quick note, remember to turn off your cell phones at these events. Protestors are tracked by their cell phone records by the police and govt.
bobwaycott 13y ago
The only way public demonstrations are going to have an effect is for them to be massive and concentrated. That does not mean widespread protests are a bad idea per se, but that if none of the protests actually have mass, they are going to be ignored by both officials and your fellow citizens as a temporary annoyance for which they will hold little sympathy. Development of public support against greater security at the cost of freedom is the only way to make meaningful change. Yes, marches/demonstrations can be part of this. But small demonstrations do not alone capture the public's interest. One must capture the public mind--and that means informing the public and winning their support of having less "security" where weaking or violating the protections of their basic rights are concerned. Right now, as various polls have showed, far too many Americans desire the feeling and theater of security. They are content to be invaded at airport security because eventually they can still fly. They are content to have their communications slurped up because they can still send that email and make that phone call. It's not until they're staring at a public fountain from which they are not able to drink because it has a stupid printed sign above it that says "Whites Only" that the public will accept that things have gone horribly wrong. I think demonstrations would be excellent to see, but not if they're anything like the Occupy movement, which the wider public opposed against their own self interest. It is very difficult to get the public's attention when they do not feel the effects. The public is rather shitty at evaluating and appreciating things in the abstract. Demonstrations that are massive and concentrated would have a much more significant impact. Think of the Civil Rights March on Washington. That level of mass and concentration. Doubling it would be even better. And yet, even that basic right to protest has been severely weakened by the fact that one must get a permit to protest in many of the locations that would be tactically good choices. This is madness. The 4th is not the only Amendment that the People have allowed to be weakened over the last two centuries. Americans have become very lazy where protecting their rights are concerned, because the vast majority of Americans do not participate in protecting those rights when they are violated against minority factions.
- pvnick 13y ago
  >The only way public demonstrations are going to have an effect is for them to be massive and concentrated. Then I'm assuming you're planning to attend your local demonstration.
jdp23 13y ago
If you're interested in getting involved, there's discussion Restore on the 4th's subreddit at http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/ http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/ and daily IRC meetings at 5 p.m.
relak 13y ago
If you want to spark mass protest, here's how you do it: cut all government programs. Once people realize how much government is artificially inflating their livelihood and how little corporations have really left for them, they will get angry and start rioting. It no longer will fit the left/right paradigm. If a Walmart employee can no longer feed their family because they have no access to government programs and Walmart pays their employees an awful wage, do you think they are just gonna take that? No. They'll demand actual change.
diminoten 13y ago
Okay, so let's not become the next Occupy movement with this, can we figure out what it is we're protesting for in the first place? And "FREEDOM" or "PRIVACY!" aren't things you can protest for and expect to get. Maybe something like, "We want to require the government to announce ALL FISA court rulings" or "We want to require the government to declassify details about the PRISM program" or something along those lines. We no longer live in an age where rhetoric tears down walls and opens doors. Somewhere along the line, people in power recognized they can just ignore pretty words and they'll usually go away.
- auston 13y ago
  I think it's fairly clear: http://www.restorethefourth.net/press/ http://www.restorethefourth.net/press/ 1. Enact reform this Congress to Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act, the state secrets privilege, and the FISA Amendments Act to make clear that blanket surveillance of the Internet activity and phone records of any person residing in the U.S. is prohibited by law and that violations can be reviewed in adversarial proceedings before a public court; 2. Create a special committee to investigate, report, and reveal to the public the extent of this domestic spying. This committee should create specific recommendations for legal and regulatory reform to end unconstitutional surveillance; 3. Hold accountable those public officials who are found to be responsible for this unconstitutional surveillance.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    (1) Is never going to happen. Even civil cases in the US can be conducted under seal, and those very rarely pertain to national security. This is exactly what the parent commenter was referring to when he said that people should figure out exactly what their demand is; the demand in item (1) here is totally unrealistic. (2) and (3) seem very straightforward, realistic, and productive.
    - scythe 13y ago
      (1) should be broken among its parts. The state secrets privilege is hard to get rid of, but it is realistic to call for the repeal of the "library records provision": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_records_provision#Section_215:_Access_to_records_and_other_items_under_FISA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_records_provision#Secti... Notably, Google itself has launched a campaign against the gag order related to NSLs, which we should all (hopefully) support!
yoster 13y ago
Peaceful protesting will not do anything. This is why many countries have violent protests as the government will feel the majority might. We as Americans are too damn compliant as the previous and current administration has clearly trashed our rights to the point we just complain and complain.

312 points by pvnick 13y ago

I know setting the date of most of these events to the 4th of July is very symbolic, but is that really the best choice? That is the one day that Americans already gather in large numbers to celebrate. In DC alone the entire national mall area and surrounding are gridlocked with people who come to see the fireworks. How would you be able to tell who is there protesting and who is there to celebrate? It seems like your protest message would easily be lost in the noise of the Fourth. Why not set it for the day before? 100,000+ people on the steps of the Capitol or in front of the White House on the evening of the 3rd would get much more coverage than doing anything on the 4th.

mtgx 13y ago

If Brazilians can create a 1 million strong protest over a 0.1$ bus fare increase, I'd hope Americans from the "land of the free, home of the brave" would be able to do the same over the revealing of a massive spying apparatus that's used against Americans and completely infringing on the 4th amendment. But even more importantly it's infringing on their human rights that should guarantee that they don't have to live in fear in a surveillance state and they have the right to anonymous speech or being able to have confidential conversations with people, without having to think that everything they say is being recorded by the government, and if if they even say the "wrong words" they may end up on certain "lists" that are monitored more heavily.

notdrunkatall 13y ago
I hope for the same thing, but I suspect that I'm going to be disappointed.
mpyne 13y ago
Is the protest over the bus fare increase? I was always told it was merely the latest in a long string of events drawing in protesters. Likewise, didn't the group that incited protests over the bus fare increase later support ending the protests, since the protests are said to have been co-opted by militants and fascists? Likewise likewise, neither anonymous speech or confidential conversations have gone away (that is, where they were possible before). But you may have to choose to enforce that by technical means (a capability we didn't used to have, by the way, just ask people who lived in the age of letters and phone calls). Likewise^3, the prioritization of who would be monitored by warrant is certainly a legitimate function of the security apparatus, unless you're trying to claim that picking random conversations to get a warrant for is somehow more effective in breaking up terror cells or criminal conspiracies. I would argue that taking action against people merely for what they believe in is screwed up, but I not only wouldn't blame people for keeping a closer eye on those who advocate large changes to government, I'd be offended as a taxpayer if they weren't doing exactly that.
- outworlder 13y ago
  > Is the protest over the bus fare increase? I was always told it was merely the latest in a long string of events drawing in protesters. Brazilian here, and you are right. The big protests started in one capital and not all capitals raised their fares, at least not recently. One week before that, in my city, we had thousands of protesters, who wanted something to be done about the violence (873 people were murdered by gunshot in the first quarter alone, out of a population of 2.5 million, giving over 60 per hundred thousand people). After the demonstrations in São Paulo, it spread like wildfire. Since not all cities have the same problems (at least, not in the same priority), the protesters had different agendas. But they were (and stil are) all over the country.
Dn_Ab 13y ago
The important bit is that the bus fares are completely irrelevant now. Most of my life I've thought that malaise amongst the oppressed was the stable state. But these protests suggest that is either wrong, or something has shifted the vocabulary of the dynamics from equilibrium to attractors. At least for a certain class of countries [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model#Self-organized_criticality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model#Self-org...] It remains to be seen if this has done anything to dampen the strong dystopian possibility of cross-national oligarchs whose members are large bureaucracies and whose mission is the status quo. And it is worth paying attention to these countries where broad abuses are not merely potential. Because if it is not possible to regain their rights, then it is all the more important to not ignore the currently well intended overreach of Lawful Good Paladins.
diminoten 13y ago
Heh, that's not fair, our country's population is more spread out, and our largest city is not our capital.
- thwest 13y ago
  We have cars that can drive us to the central protest location, and Brasilia is only the fourth largest city in Brasil.
enraged_camel 13y ago
Saying the Brazillian protests are about bus fares is like saying the Turkish protests are about a park. Your general point is good but your ignorance is getting in the way of communicating it effectively.
- mtgx 13y ago
  But that's exactly the point. For Brazilians and Turkish people, those were the tipping points. Where is America's tipping point? Haven't Americans had enough of government corruption and abuses of power already? Confidence level in Congress is at the lowest levels ever. So where are the mass protests, in the land of the brave?

pvnick 13y ago

Glad to see HNers are excited about this. Shameless plug - if you live in or around Gainesville, FL, I encourage you to attend the one I'm organizing for my town: http://gatorsrestorethefourth.com http://gatorsrestorethefourth.com

oddball28 13y ago

This is just an opinion because my personal experience with protesting is null, but isn't the strategy of protesting in hundreds of communities ineffective? It's easy to ignore or contain 50-1000+ protesters [1][2] at some 600 locations (see Occupy Wall Street), whereas a centralized protest (maybe in DC?) of 70,000+[3] will hear their voices ringing across the world. It's easy to feel like your working together and making a difference with someone across the globe, but really to be heard you need to work together,as a team, in close proximity. Change isn't easy. [1] Wrong: http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/ows_gallery_1212/ows_gallery_05.jpg http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/ows_gallery_121... [2] Meh, street performers pull bigger crowds: http://media.syracuse.com/news/photo/10265946-large.jpg http://media.syracuse.com/news/photo/10265946-large.jpg [2] Here we go: http://wakingamericaup.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/i-have-a-dream-2.jpg http://wakingamericaup.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/i-have-a-...

DougN7 13y ago
I tend to agree. I thought protests were going to be focused in state capitals for that reason. Maybe I need to pay more attention :)
- oddball28 13y ago
  I should add that: I don't think this idea is bad, it's great! And I certainly appreciate the organizers making the effort and taking the time to do this. I just fear for this cause sharing the same fate as OWS.
lettergram 13y ago
You're probably correct, however starting off, if you start with say 10 people protesting on a local public street you may get 10 new people to notice you. After a time you can double, triple, quadruple, etc. your numbers. Then go to DC with 70-100,000 and get attention.
- oddball28 13y ago
  After giving this more thought, I agree. Large demonstrations don't happen over night, and it's necessary to start somewhere and gain traction, with the ultimate goal of snowballing into a large centralized demonstration. Maybe what's needed is an agenda that clearly works towards such a demonstration, one that's broken up into attainable goals/milestones. If demonstrators don't feel that they're continually making progress, they lose interest -- or maybe its hope that they lose. And at some point, you need strong leadership to reign in all the pieces.

aclevernickname 13y ago

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I can't help but think this is the worst idea ever. You have a highly-strung government, watching everyone for signs of domestic terrorism, and then protest, which the government has considered an act of aggression since at least the Dubya administration. The only remedy we have in this country is lawsuits. Not class-actions, either; individual lawsuits for $500k each, for egregiously prejudicing your individual rights guaranteed by the constitution. ten thousand or so of those, with the president's name in all caps (head of the Unitary Executive) listed as the defendant. or, you know, you could try to make a well-regulated militia of 3D-printed pea shooters, so you can overthrow the largest and most heavily-armed military in the history of the world. that'll definitely work. Myself, I appreciate the disclosure I'm being given that Scott McNealy was right all those years ago when he said we have zero privacy anyway. The government has the right to do whatever they want with their property. if you use/are their property (isn't that ARPAnet thing US military property?), expect them to enforce their interest in that property. TL;DR for the downvoters (+6 to -2 in less than 20 minutes? hilarious): PROTEST BAD. LAWSUITS GOOD.

LoganCale 13y ago
The right to protest is Constitutionally protected. If the government is violating that right and treating peaceful protests as aggression against them, that's all the more reason to do it, to reassert our right.
- aclevernickname 13y ago
  If you're gonna go the crazy route, leading you to dishonor and all that, at least serve the President individual notice of the rights you are reasserting before setting foot in that march, otherwise, you aren't giving him due process, and are actually prejudicing _his_ rights, giving him even more authority to treat you like an enemy. Thanks for the downvotes. perhaps you could combine them with a reply of why I'm wrong in my reasoning?
  - jsmcgd 13y ago
    Sarcasm will get you down voted.

w0ts0n 13y ago

Why is this US only?

bobwaycott 13y ago
There is no reason it has to be. However, invoking the 4th of July as part of the American public consciousness is not guaranteed to resonate with the wider world population.

temp1234567 13y ago

Just a quick note, remember to turn off your cell phones at these events. Protestors are tracked by their cell phone records by the police and govt.

bobwaycott 13y ago

The only way public demonstrations are going to have an effect is for them to be massive and concentrated. That does not mean widespread protests are a bad idea per se, but that if none of the protests actually have mass, they are going to be ignored by both officials and your fellow citizens as a temporary annoyance for which they will hold little sympathy. Development of public support against greater security at the cost of freedom is the only way to make meaningful change. Yes, marches/demonstrations can be part of this. But small demonstrations do not alone capture the public's interest. One must capture the public mind--and that means informing the public and winning their support of having less "security" where weaking or violating the protections of their basic rights are concerned. Right now, as various polls have showed, far too many Americans desire the feeling and theater of security. They are content to be invaded at airport security because eventually they can still fly. They are content to have their communications slurped up because they can still send that email and make that phone call. It's not until they're staring at a public fountain from which they are not able to drink because it has a stupid printed sign above it that says "Whites Only" that the public will accept that things have gone horribly wrong. I think demonstrations would be excellent to see, but not if they're anything like the Occupy movement, which the wider public opposed against their own self interest. It is very difficult to get the public's attention when they do not feel the effects. The public is rather shitty at evaluating and appreciating things in the abstract. Demonstrations that are massive and concentrated would have a much more significant impact. Think of the Civil Rights March on Washington. That level of mass and concentration. Doubling it would be even better. And yet, even that basic right to protest has been severely weakened by the fact that one must get a permit to protest in many of the locations that would be tactically good choices. This is madness. The 4th is not the only Amendment that the People have allowed to be weakened over the last two centuries. Americans have become very lazy where protecting their rights are concerned, because the vast majority of Americans do not participate in protecting those rights when they are violated against minority factions.

pvnick 13y ago
>The only way public demonstrations are going to have an effect is for them to be massive and concentrated. Then I'm assuming you're planning to attend your local demonstration.

jdp23 13y ago

If you're interested in getting involved, there's discussion Restore on the 4th's subreddit at http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/ http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/ and daily IRC meetings at 5 p.m.

relak 13y ago

If you want to spark mass protest, here's how you do it: cut all government programs. Once people realize how much government is artificially inflating their livelihood and how little corporations have really left for them, they will get angry and start rioting. It no longer will fit the left/right paradigm. If a Walmart employee can no longer feed their family because they have no access to government programs and Walmart pays their employees an awful wage, do you think they are just gonna take that? No. They'll demand actual change.

diminoten 13y ago

Okay, so let's not become the next Occupy movement with this, can we figure out what it is we're protesting for in the first place? And "FREEDOM" or "PRIVACY!" aren't things you can protest for and expect to get. Maybe something like, "We want to require the government to announce ALL FISA court rulings" or "We want to require the government to declassify details about the PRISM program" or something along those lines. We no longer live in an age where rhetoric tears down walls and opens doors. Somewhere along the line, people in power recognized they can just ignore pretty words and they'll usually go away.

auston 13y ago
I think it's fairly clear: http://www.restorethefourth.net/press/ http://www.restorethefourth.net/press/ 1. Enact reform this Congress to Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act, the state secrets privilege, and the FISA Amendments Act to make clear that blanket surveillance of the Internet activity and phone records of any person residing in the U.S. is prohibited by law and that violations can be reviewed in adversarial proceedings before a public court; 2. Create a special committee to investigate, report, and reveal to the public the extent of this domestic spying. This committee should create specific recommendations for legal and regulatory reform to end unconstitutional surveillance; 3. Hold accountable those public officials who are found to be responsible for this unconstitutional surveillance.
- tptacek 13y ago
  (1) Is never going to happen. Even civil cases in the US can be conducted under seal, and those very rarely pertain to national security. This is exactly what the parent commenter was referring to when he said that people should figure out exactly what their demand is; the demand in item (1) here is totally unrealistic. (2) and (3) seem very straightforward, realistic, and productive.
  - scythe 13y ago
    (1) should be broken among its parts. The state secrets privilege is hard to get rid of, but it is realistic to call for the repeal of the "library records provision": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_records_provision#Section_215:_Access_to_records_and_other_items_under_FISA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_records_provision#Secti... Notably, Google itself has launched a campaign against the gag order related to NSLs, which we should all (hopefully) support!

yoster 13y ago

Peaceful protesting will not do anything. This is why many countries have violent protests as the government will feel the majority might. We as Americans are too damn compliant as the previous and current administration has clearly trashed our rights to the point we just complain and complain.