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Please don't. The computer doesn't control the steering and breaks are mechanical. There's no remote control. Unless you sabotage the car, what you're saying

Please don't. The computer doesn't control the steering and breaks are mechanical. There's no remote control. Unless you sabotage the car, what you're saying is impossible. But if you sabotage the car, you don't need all the electronics. Just wear off the breaks or whatever else. I think you're overestimating the importance of Mr. Hastings. Maybe you'd like to add some folklore or magic to what is a tragic, but trivial death.

Amadou 13y ago
I don't think it is available on a c250 sedan like hastings was apparently driving, but Mercedes (and other manufacturers) have systems that do control steering that could conceivably be remotely hijacked. All of the self-parking systems leave the accelerator to the driver but let the computer handle the steering. Here is a review of 4 different manufacturers' self-parking systems: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/06/self-parking-cars-challenge/1743199/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/06/self-par...
- dakrisht 13y ago
  I have a Mercedes that self-parks if enabled. It steers the wheel (so the computer can fully steer the car 1000%) but it doesn't apply brakes or the accelerator. Which are also capable of being fully-controlled by the computer. Mercedes has an option (Distronic) where the car can accelerate and brake to a full stop based on the road conditions ahead. So basically, the on-board computer can fully steer, brake and accelerate/decelerate the vehicle.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  It (steering control) is available for C Class. Packages -> Lane Tracking Package +$850 http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model/class-C/model-C250C#packages http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model/class-C/model-C...
  - Amadou 13y ago
    FWIW, I looked that up and the active lane assist only "steers" by fiddling with the brakes on individual wheels.
mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
Brakes in most modern cars are under computer control. They are in mine. I know that because I can disable that control if I want to drive more aggressively. Before you say something's impossible, you might want to do some research. http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-oakland2010.pdf http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-oakland2010.pdf Cars can be controlled via their onboard computers. > I think you're overestimating the importance of Mr. Hastings. Wikipedia: "His Rolling Stone profile of General Stanley McChrystal, commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force in the Afghanistan war, documented the widespread contempt of him and his staff for civilian officials in the US government and resulted in the general's resignation." On the journalistic threat scale of 1-10 I'd say Hastings was an 11.
- tehwebguy 13y ago
  I'm under the impression that computer controlled brakes, like power steering, default to mechanical control. So if the engine starts revving without his consent the driver should still be able to apply the brakes enough to disable or slow down the car.
  - mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
    Take a look at the paper I referenced above. Their tests show the ability to disable braking while manual override isn't possible. While that doesn't address this specific car, it shows that it's possible on at least one type of car.
  - yial 13y ago
    I don't think that's always entirely true- look at the deaths that occurred with the Toyotas where the accelerator became stuck depressed, obviously shifting into neutral would have been a better choice, but they were clearly unable to provide adequate breaking to stop.
- pyalot2 13y ago
  That's a wild paper :) "maliciously bridging between our car’s two internal subnets" "we demonstrate the ability to adversarially control a wide range of automotive functions and completely ignore driver input" "We also present composite attacks that leverage individual weaknesses, including an attack that embeds malicious code in a car’s telematics unit and that will completely erase any evidence of its presence after a crash."
alan_cx 13y ago
Have a read: http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkingdom/tools/passengercars/pricelists/c-class-coupe_pdf.object-Single-MEDIA.tmp/c-class-coupe-april-2013.pdf http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/united... Not much on those cars isn't computer controlled.
pyalot2 13y ago
Like I said, it's improbable somebody would go trough the trouble. But that doesn't mean it'd be impossible. Regarding oldskool sabotage, those aren't quite reliable to produce freak accidents. Too much chance and user behavior involved. Regarding breaking: Anti-blocking systems can release the breaks all by themselves. They do this by computer input issued after evaluating the sensors for each wheel when they're working. If hacked, they could do this on pretty much any condition. Regarding steering: assisted steering uses an acctuator to amplify your input. This can be circumvented to steer by itself. Self parking systems make use of this, there's no separate system to make the steering wheel turn for self parking, it reuses the mechanics of assisted steering to do the job.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  Exactly, and consider if you had one wheel brake while the other did not for a short moment, it might be like grabbing the steering wheel and cranking the car right into a line of palm trees.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
I'm not sure about the C class, but there was a huge recall of E class w212 models over the ABS pump / braking system, basically the pump could fail catastrophically and render the car with NO brakes. If they haven't abandoned the silly/unsafe electric over hydraulic full authority control methodology for the braking system then you can't rule out remote controlled brakes. Without regard to whether Hastings' car had the flawed ABS system (probably not). The very definition of an ABS system is that braking control is taken from the driver and given to a computer, so no the brakes are not immune to hacking, no matter how unlikely you think that scenario is. I'll let Mercedes speak for themselves as to whether electronic control of steering is possible: http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/_en/distronic_plus_steering_assist/detail.html http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/_en/distronic_plus_steer...

Amadou 13y ago

I don't think it is available on a c250 sedan like hastings was apparently driving, but Mercedes (and other manufacturers) have systems that do control steering that could conceivably be remotely hijacked. All of the self-parking systems leave the accelerator to the driver but let the computer handle the steering. Here is a review of 4 different manufacturers' self-parking systems: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/06/self-parking-cars-challenge/1743199/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/12/06/self-par...

dakrisht 13y ago
I have a Mercedes that self-parks if enabled. It steers the wheel (so the computer can fully steer the car 1000%) but it doesn't apply brakes or the accelerator. Which are also capable of being fully-controlled by the computer. Mercedes has an option (Distronic) where the car can accelerate and brake to a full stop based on the road conditions ahead. So basically, the on-board computer can fully steer, brake and accelerate/decelerate the vehicle.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
It (steering control) is available for C Class. Packages -> Lane Tracking Package +$850 http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model/class-C/model-C250C#packages http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model/class-C/model-C...
- Amadou 13y ago
  FWIW, I looked that up and the active lane assist only "steers" by fiddling with the brakes on individual wheels.

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago

Brakes in most modern cars are under computer control. They are in mine. I know that because I can disable that control if I want to drive more aggressively. Before you say something's impossible, you might want to do some research. http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-oakland2010.pdf http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-oakland2010.pdf Cars can be controlled via their onboard computers. > I think you're overestimating the importance of Mr. Hastings. Wikipedia: "His Rolling Stone profile of General Stanley McChrystal, commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force in the Afghanistan war, documented the widespread contempt of him and his staff for civilian officials in the US government and resulted in the general's resignation." On the journalistic threat scale of 1-10 I'd say Hastings was an 11.

tehwebguy 13y ago
I'm under the impression that computer controlled brakes, like power steering, default to mechanical control. So if the engine starts revving without his consent the driver should still be able to apply the brakes enough to disable or slow down the car.
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  Take a look at the paper I referenced above. Their tests show the ability to disable braking while manual override isn't possible. While that doesn't address this specific car, it shows that it's possible on at least one type of car.
- yial 13y ago
  I don't think that's always entirely true- look at the deaths that occurred with the Toyotas where the accelerator became stuck depressed, obviously shifting into neutral would have been a better choice, but they were clearly unable to provide adequate breaking to stop.
pyalot2 13y ago
That's a wild paper :) "maliciously bridging between our car’s two internal subnets" "we demonstrate the ability to adversarially control a wide range of automotive functions and completely ignore driver input" "We also present composite attacks that leverage individual weaknesses, including an attack that embeds malicious code in a car’s telematics unit and that will completely erase any evidence of its presence after a crash."

alan_cx 13y ago

Have a read: http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkingdom/tools/passengercars/pricelists/c-class-coupe_pdf.object-Single-MEDIA.tmp/c-class-coupe-april-2013.pdf http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/united... Not much on those cars isn't computer controlled.

pyalot2 13y ago

Like I said, it's improbable somebody would go trough the trouble. But that doesn't mean it'd be impossible. Regarding oldskool sabotage, those aren't quite reliable to produce freak accidents. Too much chance and user behavior involved. Regarding breaking: Anti-blocking systems can release the breaks all by themselves. They do this by computer input issued after evaluating the sensors for each wheel when they're working. If hacked, they could do this on pretty much any condition. Regarding steering: assisted steering uses an acctuator to amplify your input. This can be circumvented to steer by itself. Self parking systems make use of this, there's no separate system to make the steering wheel turn for self parking, it reuses the mechanics of assisted steering to do the job.

wavefunction 13y ago
Exactly, and consider if you had one wheel brake while the other did not for a short moment, it might be like grabbing the steering wheel and cranking the car right into a line of palm trees.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

I'm not sure about the C class, but there was a huge recall of E class w212 models over the ABS pump / braking system, basically the pump could fail catastrophically and render the car with NO brakes. If they haven't abandoned the silly/unsafe electric over hydraulic full authority control methodology for the braking system then you can't rule out remote controlled brakes. Without regard to whether Hastings' car had the flawed ABS system (probably not). The very definition of an ABS system is that braking control is taken from the driver and given to a computer, so no the brakes are not immune to hacking, no matter how unlikely you think that scenario is. I'll let Mercedes speak for themselves as to whether electronic control of steering is possible: http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/_en/distronic_plus_steering_assist/detail.html http://techcenter.mercedes-benz.com/_en/distronic_plus_steer...