4 ms·

German Army buys 31% fewer helicopters to save 2.2%

51 points by lukashed 13y ago

aet 13y ago
What about maintenance and personnel? Are those included in the price? If not, maybe there are 2nd order savings we don't see...
jlgreco 13y ago
Economies of scale work both ways. If the infrastructure that you need for 100 widgets will get you to 200 widgets with only a little additional work, then don't be surprised when downsizing from 200 to 100 only saves you a little on infrastructure.
tazjin 13y ago
This is reversed causality according to a friend of mine who is involved in this. The helicopters got 13 million € more expensive, thus the order was reduced.
- danmaz74 13y ago
  If confirmed, this would change everything about the sense of the deal...
bgilroy26 13y ago
How much does helicopter upkeep cost? What are the intangible benefits to having "buy what you expect to need" instilled as a value throughout a massive organization?
- dsr_ 13y ago
  Helicopter maintenance is expensive, and training mechanics and repair technicians is also expensive. Not having a spare machine when you really need it is expensive, too. And on the gripping hand, how many wars is Germany planning to fight with helicopters in significant roles?
  - hga 13y ago
    Transport helicopters are a sine qua non of a modern military, and combat ones are really, really handy. Turn the question around: can you imagine any deployment of the Bundeswehr where they wouldn't need transport helicopters (the NH90 mentioned in the article)? This most particularly includes humanitarian missions, e.g. the usual suspects ridiculed the US for sending a carrier battle group to help survivors of the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami, not realizing they have both "nuclear powered" fresh water distillers and lots of helicopters that can transport water, food etc. (ADDED: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake#Americas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_20... says a total of 48 helicopters were involved in our military relief effort, of course from many ships.)
  - dccoolgai 13y ago
    When has Germany having a surplus of military power ever not worked out for everyone?
jhh 13y ago
wow, google translate really worked pretty well on this article. If this continues improving, it will be an awesome technology soon.
- ginsong 13y ago
  I assume you are being sarcastic. The first paragraph: "There is a moderate Deal: The German Army has ordered the number of helicopters significantly reduced. But is saved by little. As internal documents show the price per helicopter increases by reducing significantly - by 13 million euros."
- thejosh 13y ago
  Google translate works well when the text is grammatically correct, when running it across comments where people use slang it doesn't work all that well (obviously). It's the future where I can translate an article written by someone in another language on another continent into (semi)-readable text in my own language.
  - webreac 13y ago
    Your sentence is perfectly correct, but its translation in french (by google translate) is far from perfect. The translation toward english is generally not so bad, but for me, google translate is still very poor.
    - obviouslygreen 13y ago
      I think it depends largely on the source and target languages and how similar they are (in what ways I couldn't say with real certainty). Japanese -> English translations are pretty much always hilariously bad, but then we get at least some very good German -> English instances like this. Without unprecedented advancements I doubt automated translation between two highly disparate language families will be consistently usable any time soon.
      - mtrimpe 13y ago
ckozlowski 13y ago
It's a common problem in defense, especially in the last 20 years. As budgets continue to shrink, countries are under pressure to cut the number of units purchased, which increases the per-unit price (design and development, being fixed costs, have to be spread amongst a smaller number of units.) For new designs coming about after '91, it's even harder as the design work is being done at the same time. With systems like the F-35, LCS, AAAV, NH90, and others, the money is shrinking even as development is taking place, and the spiraling costs of systems that "can do everything" in an environment where no one can assume was the nature of the next generation of threats will be has made procurement something of a disaster. The last element is national. European nations are reluctant, no matter how much money it may save, to completely forgo their national defense industries in favor of larger conglomerates or the U.S. There are many areas of overlap where there is already a better, proven alternative in the market (Airbus A400M could be served by the C-17, NH90 can be handled by the SH60 series, Nimrod MRA4 by the P-8. I note all of the alternatives in favor of U.S. kit, but there are older examples of this happening in the other direction)
- hef19898 13y ago
  there's one great read that discribes the fundamental flaws of defense procurement pretty well (http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/full-labyrinth-text-w-covers.pdf http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/full-labyrinth-text-w-cove...). Mainly geared towards the US, but the basics works for Germany, too. As far as the procurment of the NH90 and Tiger is concerned, there are more flaws in the specification, design and program that fit in a book. Everybody aims at a silver bullet solution only to end up with a one made of lead for the price of a golden one. One point that dtruck me most when I was still part of the "system" was the shere amount of spec and design changes that happened AFTER development was finished. the solution is called Retrofit. That and the important difference of a design to be able to perform a certain task and a design being allowed to perform it by the german army. One example is the NH90 not able to transport troops with combat gear (German army view pint) and the NH90 being suvvessfully used to airlift troop over half of Finland. Another one would be the Eurofighter being unable to perform ground support operations in the german air force and the very same plane doing just that for the british. And the A400M would be apretty good plane hadn't politians insisted on a new prop engine built by a paneuropean consortium that did that for the very first time. That other planes would be just as good, agree. Even i would have rather opted for the Antonov An70 :-) What really sad about the NH90 is the wasted potential. Considering the age of the Blackhawks, the potential market is HUGE. The situation being what it is, this ain't gone happen. But that's a point the NH90 has in common with the F-35, doesn't it?
sn0v 13y ago
Okay is it just me or does the Defence Minister look like a bobblehead doll in that pic?

51 points by lukashed 13y ago

aet 13y ago

What about maintenance and personnel? Are those included in the price? If not, maybe there are 2nd order savings we don't see...

jlgreco 13y ago

Economies of scale work both ways. If the infrastructure that you need for 100 widgets will get you to 200 widgets with only a little additional work, then don't be surprised when downsizing from 200 to 100 only saves you a little on infrastructure.

tazjin 13y ago

This is reversed causality according to a friend of mine who is involved in this. The helicopters got 13 million € more expensive, thus the order was reduced.

danmaz74 13y ago
If confirmed, this would change everything about the sense of the deal...

bgilroy26 13y ago

How much does helicopter upkeep cost? What are the intangible benefits to having "buy what you expect to need" instilled as a value throughout a massive organization?

dsr_ 13y ago
Helicopter maintenance is expensive, and training mechanics and repair technicians is also expensive. Not having a spare machine when you really need it is expensive, too. And on the gripping hand, how many wars is Germany planning to fight with helicopters in significant roles?
- hga 13y ago
  Transport helicopters are a sine qua non of a modern military, and combat ones are really, really handy. Turn the question around: can you imagine any deployment of the Bundeswehr where they wouldn't need transport helicopters (the NH90 mentioned in the article)? This most particularly includes humanitarian missions, e.g. the usual suspects ridiculed the US for sending a carrier battle group to help survivors of the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami, not realizing they have both "nuclear powered" fresh water distillers and lots of helicopters that can transport water, food etc. (ADDED: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake#Americas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_20... says a total of 48 helicopters were involved in our military relief effort, of course from many ships.)
- dccoolgai 13y ago
  When has Germany having a surplus of military power ever not worked out for everyone?

jhh 13y ago

wow, google translate really worked pretty well on this article. If this continues improving, it will be an awesome technology soon.

ginsong 13y ago
I assume you are being sarcastic. The first paragraph: "There is a moderate Deal: The German Army has ordered the number of helicopters significantly reduced. But is saved by little. As internal documents show the price per helicopter increases by reducing significantly - by 13 million euros."
thejosh 13y ago
Google translate works well when the text is grammatically correct, when running it across comments where people use slang it doesn't work all that well (obviously). It's the future where I can translate an article written by someone in another language on another continent into (semi)-readable text in my own language.
- webreac 13y ago
  Your sentence is perfectly correct, but its translation in french (by google translate) is far from perfect. The translation toward english is generally not so bad, but for me, google translate is still very poor.
  - obviouslygreen 13y ago
    I think it depends largely on the source and target languages and how similar they are (in what ways I couldn't say with real certainty). Japanese -> English translations are pretty much always hilariously bad, but then we get at least some very good German -> English instances like this. Without unprecedented advancements I doubt automated translation between two highly disparate language families will be consistently usable any time soon.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago

ckozlowski 13y ago

It's a common problem in defense, especially in the last 20 years. As budgets continue to shrink, countries are under pressure to cut the number of units purchased, which increases the per-unit price (design and development, being fixed costs, have to be spread amongst a smaller number of units.) For new designs coming about after '91, it's even harder as the design work is being done at the same time. With systems like the F-35, LCS, AAAV, NH90, and others, the money is shrinking even as development is taking place, and the spiraling costs of systems that "can do everything" in an environment where no one can assume was the nature of the next generation of threats will be has made procurement something of a disaster. The last element is national. European nations are reluctant, no matter how much money it may save, to completely forgo their national defense industries in favor of larger conglomerates or the U.S. There are many areas of overlap where there is already a better, proven alternative in the market (Airbus A400M could be served by the C-17, NH90 can be handled by the SH60 series, Nimrod MRA4 by the P-8. I note all of the alternatives in favor of U.S. kit, but there are older examples of this happening in the other direction)

hef19898 13y ago
there's one great read that discribes the fundamental flaws of defense procurement pretty well (http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/full-labyrinth-text-w-covers.pdf http://pogoarchives.org/labyrinth/full-labyrinth-text-w-cove...). Mainly geared towards the US, but the basics works for Germany, too. As far as the procurment of the NH90 and Tiger is concerned, there are more flaws in the specification, design and program that fit in a book. Everybody aims at a silver bullet solution only to end up with a one made of lead for the price of a golden one. One point that dtruck me most when I was still part of the "system" was the shere amount of spec and design changes that happened AFTER development was finished. the solution is called Retrofit. That and the important difference of a design to be able to perform a certain task and a design being allowed to perform it by the german army. One example is the NH90 not able to transport troops with combat gear (German army view pint) and the NH90 being suvvessfully used to airlift troop over half of Finland. Another one would be the Eurofighter being unable to perform ground support operations in the german air force and the very same plane doing just that for the british. And the A400M would be apretty good plane hadn't politians insisted on a new prop engine built by a paneuropean consortium that did that for the very first time. That other planes would be just as good, agree. Even i would have rather opted for the Antonov An70 :-) What really sad about the NH90 is the wasted potential. Considering the age of the Blackhawks, the potential market is HUGE. The situation being what it is, this ain't gone happen. But that's a point the NH90 has in common with the F-35, doesn't it?

sn0v 13y ago

Okay is it just me or does the Defence Minister look like a bobblehead doll in that pic?