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Google is spyware. This has been obvious for a long time. Most other "free" web services aren't much better. It's sad that it's taken so long for people to s

by gnosis 13y ago

Google is spyware. This has been obvious for a long time. Most other "free" web services aren't much better. It's sad that it's taken so long for people to start realizing and caring about this, but better late than never.

kostya-kow 13y ago
>Most other "free" web services aren't much better. Most non-free web services are equally happy giving away your data to the government. Apple, MS and all the other companies are no better than Google. And Google is not the problem -- it is just a symptom. The problem is the government that does not respect the rights of people.
- gnosis 13y ago
  My use of the term "free" was not intended to imply that "non-free" web services were any better. I used the term to highlight that what most people consider "free" web services actually have a price. That price is usually your privacy.
  - spankalee 13y ago
    Free has nothing to do with it. Go ahead and pay for the same services, but it'll do nothing to protect your data from a search warrant.
    - gnosis 13y ago
      Actually, it does have something to do with it. When you don't pay for a service in money, the company providing that service has to find some other way of generating money. Often they do this by collecting and selling data about you. Now, that doesn't mean that just because you paid for a service they won't do the same thing. But they'll will have more incentive to protect their paying customers than some service which consider you and your data as the commodity.
      - jkrems 13y ago
        This has nothing to do with privacy and free services. Yes, that is a problem, but it has no connection at all to this case. It's about emails and private chats being given to the government without any limitations. It's about non-US citizens having zero protection or due process when they use US-based cloud services. That's a couple of degrees more severe than "Google is storing personal details about you and may give them to the government". It basically means that foreigners upload their data de-facto directly to NSA servers when they use US cloud services.
        embolism 13y ago
        You can't separate the two. The reason why foreigners are uploading their data to the NSA when they use Google is because of the way Google makes its money and engineers its services. Compare this to Apple's iMessage or FaceTime - Apple cannot decrypt the contents of the messages, and therefore cannot give the contents to the government. They designed the service this way because their users pay for the service as part of the cost of the devices they sell so they don't require access to the data for behavioral profiling.
        magicalist 13y ago
        Even leaving behind the arguments that Apple was incorrect on iMessage history being inaccessible to them, what about the rest of Apple's services (like all your icloud email, your contacts, calendar, etc) that certainly can be turned over with a warrant? Your conclusion does not follow.
        embolism 13y ago
        That data certainly can (and likely is) turned over by Apple in just the same way that the data Google stockpiles can be. This doesn't affect the conclusion - Apple can make services that don't compromise user privacy because they aren't driven by their business model to collect personal data for behavioral profiling. Google has a vested interest in collecting this data, and persuading us to accept this as normal, that Apple just doesn't have.
roderick3427 13y ago
I completely agree with you.
magicalist 13y ago
What paid web service based in the US (or in a country with applicable data sharing laws) is going to refuse all search warrants for you? Maybe you were looking for "Most other web services not in Iceland aren't much better"?
- icebraining 13y ago
  Complying with search warrants would not be nearly as problematic if Google didn't capture so much data about its users, or made a bigger effort to prevent itself from reading it (and hence be unable to provide it). See http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2012-01-19-playing-chicken-with-cat-jpg.html http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2012-01-19-playing-chicken-w...
  - magicalist 13y ago
    Some data could be captured less, but what about data like email contents, files, contacts, calendar data, chat histories? Retaining those things are part of the whole purpose of having web clients and dwarf logs like the IP address you used to do a web search, which is ephemeral anyway. Can we at least define the "so much data" that we're talking about here? Going to my Google account page, for the most part I see services that I specifically turned on. What other data are we talking about here that would really save the day if not present? Meanwhile, some of the objections in this thread seem kind of selective. With a search warrant, the FBI can tap your phones and record your conversations, they can tap your internet connection and watch every IP address you connect to and record all the unencrypted connections you make, they can place tails on you that record every word they can pick up with a microphone, they can track every financial activity you engage in and every person you meet with; they can go into your house and take everything you own. If Colin was in the US, they could certainly go into his house and install a keylogger. If you just want an online backup system, definitely use tarsnap or the like. I have an offsite backup that's locally encrypted. If you want a web service, though, with all the tradeoffs that implies, that's what you're going to be subject to. For US citizens, search warrants are actually good things; probable cause is a high bar to meet. It's the bullshit lack of disclosure/secrecy culture that the judiciary accepts so often that is the problem here (as well as the problems of if you're not a US citizen...). If we ensure that warrant disclosure policies are reformed, at least we can be informed that our data has been seized and defend ourselves.
markdown 13y ago
> It's sad that it's taken so long for people to start realizing and caring about this, but better late than never. LOL, you really think people have started caring about this? Nobody but a handful of techies and tech writers gives a shit.

by gnosis 13y ago

kostya-kow 13y ago

>Most other "free" web services aren't much better. Most non-free web services are equally happy giving away your data to the government. Apple, MS and all the other companies are no better than Google. And Google is not the problem -- it is just a symptom. The problem is the government that does not respect the rights of people.

gnosis 13y ago
My use of the term "free" was not intended to imply that "non-free" web services were any better. I used the term to highlight that what most people consider "free" web services actually have a price. That price is usually your privacy.
- spankalee 13y ago
  Free has nothing to do with it. Go ahead and pay for the same services, but it'll do nothing to protect your data from a search warrant.
  - gnosis 13y ago
    Actually, it does have something to do with it. When you don't pay for a service in money, the company providing that service has to find some other way of generating money. Often they do this by collecting and selling data about you. Now, that doesn't mean that just because you paid for a service they won't do the same thing. But they'll will have more incentive to protect their paying customers than some service which consider you and your data as the commodity.
    - jkrems 13y ago
      This has nothing to do with privacy and free services. Yes, that is a problem, but it has no connection at all to this case. It's about emails and private chats being given to the government without any limitations. It's about non-US citizens having zero protection or due process when they use US-based cloud services. That's a couple of degrees more severe than "Google is storing personal details about you and may give them to the government". It basically means that foreigners upload their data de-facto directly to NSA servers when they use US cloud services.
      - embolism 13y ago
        You can't separate the two. The reason why foreigners are uploading their data to the NSA when they use Google is because of the way Google makes its money and engineers its services. Compare this to Apple's iMessage or FaceTime - Apple cannot decrypt the contents of the messages, and therefore cannot give the contents to the government. They designed the service this way because their users pay for the service as part of the cost of the devices they sell so they don't require access to the data for behavioral profiling.
        magicalist 13y ago
        Even leaving behind the arguments that Apple was incorrect on iMessage history being inaccessible to them, what about the rest of Apple's services (like all your icloud email, your contacts, calendar, etc) that certainly can be turned over with a warrant? Your conclusion does not follow.
        embolism 13y ago
        That data certainly can (and likely is) turned over by Apple in just the same way that the data Google stockpiles can be. This doesn't affect the conclusion - Apple can make services that don't compromise user privacy because they aren't driven by their business model to collect personal data for behavioral profiling. Google has a vested interest in collecting this data, and persuading us to accept this as normal, that Apple just doesn't have.

roderick3427 13y ago

I completely agree with you.

magicalist 13y ago

What paid web service based in the US (or in a country with applicable data sharing laws) is going to refuse all search warrants for you? Maybe you were looking for "Most other web services not in Iceland aren't much better"?

icebraining 13y ago
Complying with search warrants would not be nearly as problematic if Google didn't capture so much data about its users, or made a bigger effort to prevent itself from reading it (and hence be unable to provide it). See http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2012-01-19-playing-chicken-with-cat-jpg.html http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2012-01-19-playing-chicken-w...
- magicalist 13y ago
  Some data could be captured less, but what about data like email contents, files, contacts, calendar data, chat histories? Retaining those things are part of the whole purpose of having web clients and dwarf logs like the IP address you used to do a web search, which is ephemeral anyway. Can we at least define the "so much data" that we're talking about here? Going to my Google account page, for the most part I see services that I specifically turned on. What other data are we talking about here that would really save the day if not present? Meanwhile, some of the objections in this thread seem kind of selective. With a search warrant, the FBI can tap your phones and record your conversations, they can tap your internet connection and watch every IP address you connect to and record all the unencrypted connections you make, they can place tails on you that record every word they can pick up with a microphone, they can track every financial activity you engage in and every person you meet with; they can go into your house and take everything you own. If Colin was in the US, they could certainly go into his house and install a keylogger. If you just want an online backup system, definitely use tarsnap or the like. I have an offsite backup that's locally encrypted. If you want a web service, though, with all the tradeoffs that implies, that's what you're going to be subject to. For US citizens, search warrants are actually good things; probable cause is a high bar to meet. It's the bullshit lack of disclosure/secrecy culture that the judiciary accepts so often that is the problem here (as well as the problems of if you're not a US citizen...). If we ensure that warrant disclosure policies are reformed, at least we can be informed that our data has been seized and defend ourselves.

markdown 13y ago

> It's sad that it's taken so long for people to start realizing and caring about this, but better late than never. LOL, you really think people have started caring about this? Nobody but a handful of techies and tech writers gives a shit.