4 ms·

So.. they said please, didn't threaten you, and pointed out a few potential problems with the method you are using (like missing return addresses). That seems.

by dedward 13y ago

So.. they said please, didn't threaten you, and pointed out a few potential problems with the method you are using (like missing return addresses). That seems.. helpful?

tsaoutourpants 13y ago
They were certainly polite. :) I did a quick check for people submitting things like "FUCK YOU" and "YOUR MOM" in every field and deleted those before sending. A couple I let through had things like missing city but valid ZIP code, which I assume would actually be enough to get the letter to them. 95% of what was sent had a full address.
- moneta 13y ago
  The post will deliver with a wrong city & state if you have a valid zip code. :)
- dfc 13y ago
  A couple I let through had things like missing city but valid ZIP code, which I assume would actually be enough to get the letter to them Did you ever read their instructions for filing a FOIA request? "If you do not include a name and complete postal address, NSA will be unable to respond."[1] While you are here I dont understand what you mean by: "It seems that the NSA does not quite get that this is a protest, in addition to a request for information." How did you expect them to act? And/or what behavior would constitute recognition that this is a "protest"? NSA is required by law to respond to FOIA requests. The civil servant that emailed you was doing what her employer told her to do so that she could continue to bring a paycheck home. Are all the "protest" FOIA requests supposed to get tossed in a burn bag at the end of the day? [1] http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...
  - intopieces 13y ago
    "The civil servant that emailed you was doing what her employer told her to do so that she could continue to bring a paycheck home." So she was just following orders, huh?
    - dfc 13y ago
      Do you have a problem with her actions?
  - genwin 13y ago
    Yes, civil servants who flout the oath they took should be just as respected as those who don't. > I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...
    - dfc 13y ago
      These people work in the FOIA compliance department. How did they violate their oath?
      - genwin 13y ago
        She works for the NSA's FOIA department, hence bearing sufficient responsibility for the NSA's wrongdoing.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        Well, if she's lucky, and if the NSA is competent (at being scumbags) this lady never gets anywhere near anything interesting.
  - tsaoutourpants 13y ago
    It's not me that failed to include a full address. It is the people who submitted their information and failed to fill out the form properly. The form is dead simple, but no matter what, there will always be a small % of people who do not follow instructions. Furthermore, the NSA does not get to make "rules" about the form of FOIA requests. If they have enough information to reply, by law, they must reply.
    - dfc 13y ago
      No you were not the person that failed to include a complete address. But you were the one that assumed there would be no problem with submitting incomplete addresses. Did you read 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(3)(A): (3) (A) Except with respect to the records made available under paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, and except as provided in subparagraph (E), each agency, upon any request for records which (i) reasonably describes such records and (ii) is made in accordance with published rules stating the time, place, fees (if any), and procedures to be followed, shall make the records promptly available to any person. [1] Or maybe you can point me to where it says that NSA is not allowed to specify the procedures for filing? It seems that NSA is not alone when it comes to requiring a complete address.[2] You seem like an intelligent person who is genuinely interested in government. You may enjoy reading the DOJ's procedural requirements for foia[3]. It is an interesting exploration of all of the legal subtleties of FOIA. I am still interested in hearing what behavior would constitute recognition that this is a "protest"? [1] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/552 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/552 [2] http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia-guide13/procedural-requirements.pdf http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia-guide13/procedural-requireme... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=foia+%22complete+address%22+site:gov https://www.google.com/search?q=foia+%22complete+address%22+...
      - tsaoutourpants 13y ago
        I'm not "assuming" anything. I simply print and mail documents. I actually can't do more to review the forms, because it would be crossing the line into giving legal advice. If the form looked like it was filled out, I mailed it.
pwenzel 13y ago
Does it bother anyone else that the online FOIA Request form [1] is not protected by SSL? Edit: I attempted to submit a request via the online form, but it responded "An error occurred while processing your request." This makes the paper request seem much more reasonable now. [1] http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...

by dedward 13y ago

So.. they said please, didn't threaten you, and pointed out a few potential problems with the method you are using (like missing return addresses). That seems.. helpful?

tsaoutourpants 13y ago

They were certainly polite. :) I did a quick check for people submitting things like "FUCK YOU" and "YOUR MOM" in every field and deleted those before sending. A couple I let through had things like missing city but valid ZIP code, which I assume would actually be enough to get the letter to them. 95% of what was sent had a full address.

moneta 13y ago
The post will deliver with a wrong city & state if you have a valid zip code. :)
dfc 13y ago
A couple I let through had things like missing city but valid ZIP code, which I assume would actually be enough to get the letter to them Did you ever read their instructions for filing a FOIA request? "If you do not include a name and complete postal address, NSA will be unable to respond."[1] While you are here I dont understand what you mean by: "It seems that the NSA does not quite get that this is a protest, in addition to a request for information." How did you expect them to act? And/or what behavior would constitute recognition that this is a "protest"? NSA is required by law to respond to FOIA requests. The civil servant that emailed you was doing what her employer told her to do so that she could continue to bring a paycheck home. Are all the "protest" FOIA requests supposed to get tossed in a burn bag at the end of the day? [1] http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...
- intopieces 13y ago
  "The civil servant that emailed you was doing what her employer told her to do so that she could continue to bring a paycheck home." So she was just following orders, huh?
  - dfc 13y ago
    Do you have a problem with her actions?
- genwin 13y ago
  Yes, civil servants who flout the oath they took should be just as respected as those who don't. > I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...
  - dfc 13y ago
    These people work in the FOIA compliance department. How did they violate their oath?
    - genwin 13y ago
      She works for the NSA's FOIA department, hence bearing sufficient responsibility for the NSA's wrongdoing.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        Well, if she's lucky, and if the NSA is competent (at being scumbags) this lady never gets anywhere near anything interesting.
- tsaoutourpants 13y ago
  It's not me that failed to include a full address. It is the people who submitted their information and failed to fill out the form properly. The form is dead simple, but no matter what, there will always be a small % of people who do not follow instructions. Furthermore, the NSA does not get to make "rules" about the form of FOIA requests. If they have enough information to reply, by law, they must reply.
  - dfc 13y ago
    No you were not the person that failed to include a complete address. But you were the one that assumed there would be no problem with submitting incomplete addresses. Did you read 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(3)(A): (3) (A) Except with respect to the records made available under paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, and except as provided in subparagraph (E), each agency, upon any request for records which (i) reasonably describes such records and (ii) is made in accordance with published rules stating the time, place, fees (if any), and procedures to be followed, shall make the records promptly available to any person. [1] Or maybe you can point me to where it says that NSA is not allowed to specify the procedures for filing? It seems that NSA is not alone when it comes to requiring a complete address.[2] You seem like an intelligent person who is genuinely interested in government. You may enjoy reading the DOJ's procedural requirements for foia[3]. It is an interesting exploration of all of the legal subtleties of FOIA. I am still interested in hearing what behavior would constitute recognition that this is a "protest"? [1] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/552 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/552 [2] http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia-guide13/procedural-requirements.pdf http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia-guide13/procedural-requireme... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=foia+%22complete+address%22+site:gov https://www.google.com/search?q=foia+%22complete+address%22+...
    - tsaoutourpants 13y ago
      I'm not "assuming" anything. I simply print and mail documents. I actually can't do more to review the forms, because it would be crossing the line into giving legal advice. If the form looked like it was filled out, I mailed it.

pwenzel 13y ago

Does it bother anyone else that the online FOIA Request form [1] is not protected by SSL? Edit: I attempted to submit a request via the online form, but it responded "An error occurred while processing your request." This makes the paper request seem much more reasonable now. [1] http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...