17 ms·
Don't Look for Talent, Find People Who Do Things
- MaxScheiber 13y agoI find this particularly tingling because Tucker himself is a perfect example of doing things. He gets a lot of flak from people calling him a poor writer and lambasting him for writing about some of the "finer" topics in life. Yet, he is a New York Times bestselling author, and his detractors are not.
- Alex3917 13y ago"he is a New York Times bestselling author, and his detractors are not." Then again, his book makes not being a bestselling author seem like an accomplishment.
- beat 13y ago"his book makes not being a bestselling author seem like an accomplishment". And that, my friend, is a GREAT marketing plan. You know how when pg says that if there are two explanations for your situation, and one gives you an excuse to be lazy, choose the other one? Most people choose the excuse to be lazy. That's a big market just itching to pay to have someone tell them what they want to hear.
- michaelochurch 13y agoHe's the worst kind of shitty writer. He's clearly intelligent. His writing is shit because he doesn't care. Why should I spend time reading him if he doesn't put time into the quality of his writing?
- obstacle1 13y agoNobody reads Tucker Max hoping to catch a glimpse of literary genius. His stories are pure content, and his audience likes that. Fans want to hear Tucker's stories about sexual exploits and blackout drinking, and don't particularly care whether or not said exploits are described using alliteration. So you shouldn't spend time reading him, because you aren't his intended audience.
- jseliger 13y ago>His writing is shit because he doesn't care. I am not convinced this is true, nor have I seen a sophisticated analysis of his work that demonstrates this point (though I am open to reading one); it seems that most people assume the point and then proceed from there. I did write a mostly positive analysis of his work here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/02/09/hilarity-ensues-tucker-max/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/02/09/hilarity-ensues-tuc... , however.
- Pxtl 13y agoI'm perfectly okay with thinking that he's a terrible writer who produces absolute dreck while still respecting him for being a creative and hard-working person. He makes the art he wants to make, gets paid very well for it, is prolific, and is hard-working in his field. That deserves respect. But his stuff is absolute crap.
- MaxScheiber 13y agoTucker argues that his books teach important lessons and are deeper than just "got drunk, had sex." A common theme in a lot of his stories is that he almost always came out the loser — did something incredibly stupid, or lost a friend, or went to jail, etc. Tucker points out multiple times how immature of a person he was when these stories took place. In the end, he is the one hurt the most by his actions. He's matured and learned from his own mistakes. They're good for a cheap laugh if you're into that sort of thing, but having read I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell, I can agree that his book isn't vapid. There is a bit more to it than one would think.
- chrisbennet 13y agoThe other day I saw a "looking for technical partner" ad in craigslist by someone who listed "I'm creative" as one of the assets they would be bringing to the partnership. It made me think about the word "creative". I thought to myself, if I was considering teaming up with this person I would asked them: "What have you created?"
- dsirijus 13y agoOften, people confuse swirling ideas seeking form in their head for creativity.
- iamareyoucreat 13y agoI think the other situation is more common: smart people with swirling unique thoughts keep them hidden because they don't consider themselves creative.
- nine_k 13y agoI'm yet to meet such a person. Probably it's just uncommon in the IT crowd, which is highly open to ideas and meritocratic.
- bennyg 13y agoI agree completely. When I was in Art school I was working on a project that instead of using charcoal to create the darks on a white sheet of paper, the assignment was to use a white conte crayon to denote the light areas on a black sheet of paper. I had taken my assignment home and was working on it in my living room when a neighbor and friend of mine knocked on my door and he came in and looked at what I was doing. He was a Mech. E student, and a damn smart person. He told me to my face that he could never do what I was doing because he wasn't creative. "Creative" doesn't just apply to visual arts - it's a thinking style. And every human, ever, is creative - just in different avenues. And those avenues are all obtainable by all people.
- _greim_ 13y ago> Don't look for talent Isn't talent the ability to do things well? Or maybe I lack a nuanced definition of "talent". Or maybe the headline is trying to be sensational.
- loganfrederick 13y agoI think his point is even more basic, but perhaps more depressing: Finding people who are decent and competent can be hard enough, so you have to cover that minimum bar before you can talk about "talent". Given his industry and as he cites in the post, he probably faces the problem of lots of people who claim to be "writers" more than the average HN user finds people who claim to be "programmers".
- hga 13y agoIndeed; one of my maxims is "Do not do something if you cannot do it well", and I still think it's a good one as long as you adjust that for things like Time to Market (a better thing too late is not really "better", or insert standard Patton quote; military history is useful to learn for striking this balance) and "adequate" especially for those things that must be done but would otherwise not get done at all. But it's implicit in the essay, and I take the headline as not so "sensational" since it's advocating a particular primary focus that's different from a very common and irrelevant one (at least as the primary focus). I've been told this is one of the things MIT looks for in undergraduate applications, "projects" as they put it, but basically evidence that this is someone who does stuff (which I was fortunate to be able to provide in my application). Which of course is one of the reasons MIT has such a reputation, a strong part of the Zeitgeist is doing things. To reify that, I think Richard Feynman, Class of '39, first got interested in the Connection Machine when Danny Hillis was visiting Caltech and they ensconced themselves for a week or so discussing it. However, when he showed up to help the new company (there's an exposition of this that's commonly linked to on HN), things were in chaos, and the only thing they could think of right then was to send him to get office supplies. Which he was entirely happy to do, Nobel Prize winner or not. Hmmm, come to think of it, I've had casual interactions with a couple of Nobelist biologists while studying there, one teaching a class, one was my undergraduate adviser for a term before I switched majors, and they gave off the standard "get things done" vibe, you wouldn't have any idea they'd gotten the prize without looking at their bios.
- the_economist 13y agoI like to ask people about what they do in their private life. What are their hobbies. Do they have a lot going on? People who keep themselves busy tend to have a strong motor and usually apply that to their work life as well. Similarly, people don't do much of anything outside of work can bring this habit into the workplace.
- danielweber 13y ago"In my free time I try to keep my house clean enough so that the kids don't manage to vibrationally attune it to the elemental plane of trash." "Oh, was that not what you wanted me to say?"
- jabbernotty 13y agoThat isn't the same as "a person who doesn't do much of anything". I think it's more in the spirit of "what hobbies do you have" / "what kind of activities do you like".
- nine_k 13y agoHave you tried having small kids and managing to get some free time for hobbies? It's more challenging than it seems, and usually takes 6-7 years to resolve itself.
- jasonlotito 13y agoYes. Both with autism. It is challenging, but not impossible. You have to do more than just a hobby. You have to manage time, energy, and money.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- nine_k 13y agoWow. Our younger is only slightly autistic, and the elder has already grown up. Two simultaneously would be challenging indeed!
- bjhoops1 13y agoI read this whole post before realizing it was written by that prick, Tucker Max. I wish I could unread it.
- greghinch 13y agoI do agree with your sentiments on Tucker Max, but I think the message is worthwhile no matter the messenger. A lot of people need to have this idea hammered in over and over until it sticks. Ironically most of them probably don't read HN.
- jere 13y agoWhat gave it away? Was it tuckermax.me domain before you got to the website, after it loaded, the sidebar bio, or the huge banner at the top?
- obstacle1 13y agoI don't like X, therefore I won't consider X's arguments. That strategy seems like a great way to never learn anything except whatever confirms your own biases.
- bjhoops1 13y agoI didn't say he wasn't right about this. Just regret that I provided traffic to his site.
- mililani 13y agoThis is the kind of post I wish there was a downvote for on HN.
- rza 13y ago"Dogshit developers get paid 50k to start. Good ones are over 100k. You just have to have actual skills." Because how much someone makes determines if they're dogshit or not.
- wonnage 13y agoI think you have your cause and effect backwards. Being paid 50k doesn't make you a bad developer. But bad developers tend to get paid less. At least, one would hope...
- jere 13y agoAfter rereading that, I think all he is saying is that $50k is the floor. In other words, if you can get in the door you're making $50k no questions asked.
- Pxtl 13y agoAlso, that number seriously depends on market. I work in a place that's absolutely lousy for coders and 50k is pretty typical here. I'd move if I hadn't put down deep roots.
- nordsieck 13y agoI wonder how that compares to these results: http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/10/selecting-talent-the-upshot-from-85-years-of-research.html http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/10/selecting-tal... My gut reaction is that there is sample restriction going on: that there is a minimum intelligence create a large volume of coherent software. Additionally, there are a number of practices that are illegal in the US (not sure about other countries) like structured interviews, so the list of things that companies can use is somewhat limited.
- coldcode 13y agohttp://thecodist.com/article/interviews_can_be_a_terrible_way_to_identify_good_programmers http://thecodist.com/article/interviews_can_be_a_terrible_wa...
- cyplo 13y agoshameless autopromotion, a.k.a. my viewpoint: http://blog.cyplo.net/2011/07/24/how-to-hire-people/ http://blog.cyplo.net/2011/07/24/how-to-hire-people/
- SkyMarshal 13y agoPro-tip: don't just link your blog post, give us an executive summary. If you won't make the effort to do at least that, I wouldn't expect many to make the effort to click your link.
- cyplo 13y agothanks :) to you point: I think the recruitment process should be less automated and more humane. One should just sit and try to work with another person, as they would be their work partner.
- SkyMarshal 13y agoAgreed, have heard good reports of companies contracting prospectives for a day or more to actually work on something on the company's todo list, and doing it with pair programming.
- theartfuldod3r 13y agoTL;DR Tucker Max doesn't hire people that can't do anything, is still an asshole with obnoxious writing style.
- jleyank 13y agoJoel said this well a while back: Smart and gets things done.
- farnsworth 13y agoI can't work on projects outside of work because I work ~12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week and there's no way I can free up the long periods of time needed to create something good. I can't talk up my technical accomplishments in an interview because my job isn't particularly technically demanding or interesting, beyond the company name. I think I'm a good interviewer except when it comes to talking about anything I've actually worked on after college (1 year ago). Any tips on how to get past this?
- beat 13y agoWait, you're working 60+ hours on boring crap that doesn't advance your career? WHAT THE HELL?!? STOP THAT!! Take another job. ANY other job. Flip burgers if you must. Get your priorities in order. 60+ hour work weeks on something you don't utterly love leave you no time to have a life, much less build a career.
- tekromancr 13y agoAnd sometimes you desperately need money.
- tonyedgecombe 13y agoNot often, plenty of people survive with very little, even in developed nations.
- tekromancr 13y agoI owe 5 figures and make 4. Any money I make goes to rent and ramen. I would kill for consistaint work programming, which is the only thing I am really good for.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- TheMagicHorsey 13y agoI honestly don't know why this blog post is so highly rated on HN. He is just recapping what other people have been saying in news articles and blog posts.
- escaped_hn 13y ago"Creative". No. "Creative and willing to invest financially". Yes.