4 ms·

> I don't know about you, but I would prefer if things happened "naturally", without talking about it explicitly. Us sitting closer, slowly drawing our heads cl

by Cushman 13y ago

> I don't know about you, but I would prefer if things happened "naturally", without talking about it explicitly. Us sitting closer, slowly drawing our heads closer, lips touch, mouths open, kiss. I used to think that, too, as a teenager. Then I had sex with a bunch of people and realized, who gives a fuck? Sex is fun. It's fun when it happens spontaneously, with mutual passion. It's fun when it's discussed and scheduled ahead of time. It's just fun! As long as both people want to. Then I thought about some of those times things just happened "naturally", and I realized, I'm not really sure if she did want to. That's not fun. So now, if there's any doubt in my mind whatsoever, I just ask. I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. Because I'm even less interested in pressuring someone I really care about into something she doesn't want. And she will do the same for me. Guess what? Still fun. > Btw, you realize, right, that with your comment you're promoting rape (according to your definition)? After all, a woman taking "explicit proactive action" without your explicit verbal consent is, the same as a man would if the situation was reversed, raping him. Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this?

tomp 13y ago
> Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this? Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it.
- 300bps 13y ago
  >Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it. Fortunately, it's like that in the U.S. too for most people. There is a very vocal minority here that is making things way more complicated than they actually are in real life. This was my favorite quote from the person you're responding to: >I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. To imply that to not receive explicit verbal affirmative permission is equal to rape is unbelievably insulting and delusional.
  - Cushman 13y ago
    > This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. See, this is the problem. It's not "timid" to talk about sex. I know my girlfriend well, and she knows me, and if we're hanging out together and we're both down to fuck then it's on. Here's the other thing that happens: I'm in one room playing Starcraft, she's in the other room reading a book, and I start feeling a little randy. I'm not going to wander in there and try to get into her field of view to make eyes at her. If I just walk up and start touching her, and she's not into it, she'll feel irritated and I'll feel rejected and that's not good for us. So what I do instead is -- and to be clear, this happens about as often the other way around -- I say, hey, do you want to have sex? And she thinks about it for a second, and if she says "yes" we get naked and down to business. If she says "no", no hard feelings, I can go back to my game. If it's in between, like "not really" or "maybe later", we can have a quick chat about it and come to a decision together. Do you understand what I'm saying here? Me asking my girlfriend if she wants to have sex, and vice versa, means we have way more sex than we would if we both sat around waiting for the "signals". And we really like sex, so this is great for us. But I guess if you're married with kids, there are other reasons you can't relate to this. And since I'm here, rid that word "permission" from your vocabulary in this discussion. Permission is asked from a superior. Consent is a mutual arrangement between equals. Therein lies the core of this entire issue.
    - figglesonrails 13y ago
      Whatever works for you. Your scenario actually seems somewhat atypical to me, but it helps me understand why you come off as "white knight" to everyone. EDIT: which is to say, it's not wrong that this works for you, this isn't a criticism of that. I think you may be mistaking a local optimum for a global [in the sense of math - so the country/dating pool] optimum because it works so well for you; i.e. the false-consensus effect. Also, I don't value "having way more sex" over "having extremely hot sex", but this is also just me. Your advice would not work in my relationship. In fact, it is decidedly unhot to ask a "yes/no" question and I would probably get rolled eyes. It would still work and bluntly convey my intentions, but it would come off as completely un-suave. For us, the language of the body is far more rich, intimate, and revealing to one's true desires. In fact, rarely when we have sex does it start with both parties reaching the same conclusion at the same time. Sometimes, something as simple as a good-bye kiss can turn into a 20-minute delay -- and I wouldn't have it any other way.
angersock 13y ago
"It's fun when it happens spontaneously" You do, of course, realize the absurdity of your statement here, given this: "Without a clear verbal confirmation of consent, or an explicit proactive action, you cannot know if your partner is participating willingly." How does that work, exactly?
- Cushman 13y ago
  There is such a thing as enthusiastic nonverbal consent-- it's pretty hard to mistake. I've never been saying, "always ask 100% of the time no matter what". I've been saying, "If you have any doubt in your mind, just ask." And accordingly, to place the line of doubt somewhere a little higher than "She let me into her house."
  - tomp 13y ago
    Well, that's exactly what I believe that the author of the book was saying, if one reads his text with a slightly different, more realistic, bias. He wrote the book exactly because many men, after having heard lectures from people like you, fail to notice and act upon even the most enthusiastic non-verbal consent.
xtrumanx 13y ago
> Without a clear verbal confirmation of consent, or an explicit proactive action, you cannot know if your partner is participating willingly. > Did you expect me to disagree with this? I don't understand. Why did you bring it up if you didn't think it was okay for your partner to make an explicit proactive action without clear verbal confirmation of consent?
tomp 13y ago
> I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. How often does she ask you?
- Cushman 13y ago
  Per my lengthy reply above, roughly as often. It's pretty great.

by Cushman 13y ago

tomp 13y ago

> Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this? Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it.

300bps 13y ago
>Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it. Fortunately, it's like that in the U.S. too for most people. There is a very vocal minority here that is making things way more complicated than they actually are in real life. This was my favorite quote from the person you're responding to: >I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. To imply that to not receive explicit verbal affirmative permission is equal to rape is unbelievably insulting and delusional.
- Cushman 13y ago
  > This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. See, this is the problem. It's not "timid" to talk about sex. I know my girlfriend well, and she knows me, and if we're hanging out together and we're both down to fuck then it's on. Here's the other thing that happens: I'm in one room playing Starcraft, she's in the other room reading a book, and I start feeling a little randy. I'm not going to wander in there and try to get into her field of view to make eyes at her. If I just walk up and start touching her, and she's not into it, she'll feel irritated and I'll feel rejected and that's not good for us. So what I do instead is -- and to be clear, this happens about as often the other way around -- I say, hey, do you want to have sex? And she thinks about it for a second, and if she says "yes" we get naked and down to business. If she says "no", no hard feelings, I can go back to my game. If it's in between, like "not really" or "maybe later", we can have a quick chat about it and come to a decision together. Do you understand what I'm saying here? Me asking my girlfriend if she wants to have sex, and vice versa, means we have way more sex than we would if we both sat around waiting for the "signals". And we really like sex, so this is great for us. But I guess if you're married with kids, there are other reasons you can't relate to this. And since I'm here, rid that word "permission" from your vocabulary in this discussion. Permission is asked from a superior. Consent is a mutual arrangement between equals. Therein lies the core of this entire issue.
  - figglesonrails 13y ago
    Whatever works for you. Your scenario actually seems somewhat atypical to me, but it helps me understand why you come off as "white knight" to everyone. EDIT: which is to say, it's not wrong that this works for you, this isn't a criticism of that. I think you may be mistaking a local optimum for a global [in the sense of math - so the country/dating pool] optimum because it works so well for you; i.e. the false-consensus effect. Also, I don't value "having way more sex" over "having extremely hot sex", but this is also just me. Your advice would not work in my relationship. In fact, it is decidedly unhot to ask a "yes/no" question and I would probably get rolled eyes. It would still work and bluntly convey my intentions, but it would come off as completely un-suave. For us, the language of the body is far more rich, intimate, and revealing to one's true desires. In fact, rarely when we have sex does it start with both parties reaching the same conclusion at the same time. Sometimes, something as simple as a good-bye kiss can turn into a 20-minute delay -- and I wouldn't have it any other way.

angersock 13y ago

"It's fun when it happens spontaneously" You do, of course, realize the absurdity of your statement here, given this: "Without a clear verbal confirmation of consent, or an explicit proactive action, you cannot know if your partner is participating willingly." How does that work, exactly?

Cushman 13y ago
There is such a thing as enthusiastic nonverbal consent-- it's pretty hard to mistake. I've never been saying, "always ask 100% of the time no matter what". I've been saying, "If you have any doubt in your mind, just ask." And accordingly, to place the line of doubt somewhere a little higher than "She let me into her house."
- tomp 13y ago
  Well, that's exactly what I believe that the author of the book was saying, if one reads his text with a slightly different, more realistic, bias. He wrote the book exactly because many men, after having heard lectures from people like you, fail to notice and act upon even the most enthusiastic non-verbal consent.

xtrumanx 13y ago

> Without a clear verbal confirmation of consent, or an explicit proactive action, you cannot know if your partner is participating willingly. > Did you expect me to disagree with this? I don't understand. Why did you bring it up if you didn't think it was okay for your partner to make an explicit proactive action without clear verbal confirmation of consent?

tomp 13y ago

> I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. How often does she ask you?

Cushman 13y ago
Per my lengthy reply above, roughly as often. It's pretty great.