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This "defense" misses the point. The gist of the controversial advice is "Don't wait for signs before you make your move. Let her be the one who rejects your a

by Cushman 13y ago

This "defense" misses the point. The gist of the controversial advice is "Don't wait for signs before you make your move. Let her be the one who rejects your advances. If she says no, stop immediately and tell her you don't want to do anything that would make her uncomfortable. Try again at a later time if appropriate or cease entirely if she is absolutely not interested." This is not a defense. This advice leads to sexual assault. You are assuming your partner's consent, and placing the burden on them to reject it. That is the problem. Without a clear verbal confirmation of consent, or an explicit proactive action, you cannot know if your partner is participating willingly. Failure to reject is not the same thing as consent, and no adult should have difficulty understanding the distinction. If you follow this advice, you will rape people while believing that they are just shy. And for what? To avoid the embarrassment of saying, "So do you wanna fuck?" How old are you? Or are you worried that if you ask a woman "So do you wanna fuck?", she might say no? Do I even need to explain what's wrong with that?

tomp 13y ago
I don't know about you, but I would prefer if things happened "naturally", without talking about it explicitly. Us sitting closer, slowly drawing our heads closer, lips touch, mouths open, kiss. It is, of course, somewhat sad that our culture taught us it's inappropriate and shameful to talk about sex, and that we're more comfortable having sex with someone than we are talking about sex. That's also why the most common advice on reddit.com/r/sex is "just talk to him/her". Btw, you realize, right, that with your comment you're promoting rape (according to your definition)? After all, a woman taking "explicit proactive action" without your explicit verbal consent is, the same as a man would if the situation was reversed, raping him. Have you ever touched someone without them giving you verbal consent? Rape! Please, that's absurd!
- Cushman 13y ago
  > I don't know about you, but I would prefer if things happened "naturally", without talking about it explicitly. Us sitting closer, slowly drawing our heads closer, lips touch, mouths open, kiss. I used to think that, too, as a teenager. Then I had sex with a bunch of people and realized, who gives a fuck? Sex is fun. It's fun when it happens spontaneously, with mutual passion. It's fun when it's discussed and scheduled ahead of time. It's just fun! As long as both people want to. Then I thought about some of those times things just happened "naturally", and I realized, I'm not really sure if she did want to. That's not fun. So now, if there's any doubt in my mind whatsoever, I just ask. I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. Because I'm even less interested in pressuring someone I really care about into something she doesn't want. And she will do the same for me. Guess what? Still fun. > Btw, you realize, right, that with your comment you're promoting rape (according to your definition)? After all, a woman taking "explicit proactive action" without your explicit verbal consent is, the same as a man would if the situation was reversed, raping him. Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this?
  - tomp 13y ago
    > Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this? Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it.
    - 300bps 13y ago
      >Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it. Fortunately, it's like that in the U.S. too for most people. There is a very vocal minority here that is making things way more complicated than they actually are in real life. This was my favorite quote from the person you're responding to: >I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. To imply that to not receive explicit verbal affirmative permission is equal to rape is unbelievably insulting and delusional.
      - Cushman 13y ago
        > This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. See, this is the problem. It's not "timid" to talk about sex. I know my girlfriend well, and she knows me, and if we're hanging out together and we're both down to fuck then it's on. Here's the other thing that happens: I'm in one room playing Starcraft, she's in the other room reading a book, and I start feeling a little randy. I'm not going to wander in there and try to get into her field of view to make eyes at her. If I just walk up and start touching her, and she's not into it, she'll feel irritated and I'll feel rejected and that's not good for us. So what I do instead is -- and to be clear, this happens about as often the other way around -- I say, hey, do you want to have sex? And she thinks about it for a second, and if she says "yes" we get naked and down to business. If she says "no", no hard feelings, I can go back to my game. If it's in between, like "not really" or "maybe later", we can have a quick chat about it and come to a decision together. Do you understand what I'm saying here? Me asking my girlfriend if she wants to have sex, and vice versa, means we have way more sex than we would if we both sat around waiting for the "signals". And we really like sex, so this is great for us. But I guess if you're married with kids, there are other reasons you can't relate to this. And since I'm here, rid that word "permission" from your vocabulary in this discussion. Permission is asked from a superior. Consent is a mutual arrangement between equals. Therein lies the core of this entire issue.
Samuel_Michon 13y ago
When you’ve gone out on several dates, you’ve kissed, she’s invited you to her home, and you’re now sitting on the couch with her, more often than not, the girl will expect the guy to take the initiative. By that time, asking her if you can touch her is a major downer for her. You’re expected to try something. If she didn’t want to fool around, you wouldn’t be there. That’s the context of the quotes, and in the book, it is prefaced by an instruction to stop immediately if she indicates you to do so.
- Cushman 13y ago
  That's great. So all you've gotta do is replace, "Try to have sex with her, and stop if she says no" with, "Find out if she wants to have sex with you, and do so if she does." The difference that makes to whether or not she consents -- the "downer" -- is precisely the point.
  - theorique 13y ago
    Does this consent have to be verbal, or does active participation count? (e.g. Kissing back, tugging at or removing your clothing, unzipping your fly, etc) To me, those are clear evidence of a desire to progress toward sex. (Obviously, if she says stop, do so.)
    - tomp 13y ago
      Well, maybe active participation counts, but only if YOU give her verbal consent. Or that's the way I understand their argument...
      - theorique 13y ago
        Presumably, if "A" (male) is pushing forward and initiating sexual action, he's consenting ... the question is whether "B" (female) is also consenting. The question I'm asking is that if both parties are expressing 'forward motion' in terms of their actions and their body language, is it necessary to have verbal consent? Or are you violating consent if you assume their apparent physical interest substitutes for verbal consent?
angersock 13y ago
This is a very touchy subject, right? I'm going to try and convey my thoughts very carefully here, so please try and be receptive. (Context for this is for your bog-standard straight courting scenario--I do not feel qualified to comment on how courting for any other gender scenario works.) ~ In an ideal world, everybody would communicate honestly and openly. You could sit down with a girl, and have a conversation like so: "Hi, I think you're attractive and I enjoy your company. Would you be interested in pursuing a relationship, or if not, perhaps a shorter-term physical engagement?" "Yes/No/Not interested." This is, needless to say, not how 99.999% of the population works--as I, and I suspect others, have found to our dismay. Negotiating these sorts of things is not just a TCP ack sequence or something. The fact is that even were roles reversed, that is just not what we would consider a compelling user experience. Expecting explicit handshaking for every step of the relationship cycle is something only emotional robots expect. In an ideal world, the following things would be true: 1. People know what they want in a relationship. 2. People know how to convey what they want accurately to other people, especially in terms of arousal or courting. 3. People are free to signal availability or interest without repercussion, and accept rejection just as easily. These three things are obviously far, far from the case. ~ There are very much conflicting cultural mores about how courtship is supposed to work. On the one hand, we have hundreds and thousands of years of precedent (and perhaps biology, though I personally hope this is not the case) suggesting that the man is the one to initiate actions, and that the woman, if disinterested, will make her rejection known. Strictly speaking, we've got a bit more barbarous history behind us than that, but let's assume decent folk here to keep life simple. On the other hand, we've got this recent push for more explicit confirmation for consent and for the more equitable distribution of first-move-making between the man and the woman. These two things do not go together, and even worse, trying to come to a synthesis for your average inexperienced guy is a road which easily runs to ruin. So, instead we find ourselves in this curious place where young men who mean well want to get with young women who also mean well. Unfortunately, the women are brought up expecting that the men will do the work, initiate everything, and the men are increasingly told that hey need to--to be safe and respectful, mind you!--wait for explicit confirmation of every step. In programming terms, we are setting up for a deadlock. Perhaps even more troubling, the hilariously large impact of social networks and whatnot mean that gossip is worse than ever, and there is no room to make mistakes if you are one of these young men. Worse, media is constantly reinforcing some awful blend of these two mores, making both sides seek after a state of affairs that simply does not exist. There's some more issues I've seen, but you get the gist.
300bps 13y ago
>And for what? To avoid the embarrassment of saying, "So do you wanna fuck?" How old are you? I'm not the person you wrote this to, but I can answer that I am 41 years old, have been married for 11 years and have three children (including a daughter). When I think of the little scene you've played out there occurring, I see the biggest nerd in the world getting his first chance at making out with a girl when he awkwardly stops and says, "Do you consent to fornication at this time?" Frankly, your advice makes you sound unbelievably young and inexperienced with women. I have yet to meet a woman that wants you ask permission for every stage of a sexual relationship. In fact, every woman I've talked to about the subject has told me that it's specifically unwanted.
- angersock 13y ago
  "I see the biggest nerd in the world getting his first chance at making out with a girl when he awkwardly stops and says, "Do you consent to fornication at this time?"" Been there, done--basically--that. Damnedest thing; wouldn't you know that it didn't have the intended effect?
- Cushman 13y ago
  > When I think of the little scene you've played out there occurring, I see the biggest nerd in the world getting his first chance at making out with a girl when he awkwardly stops and says, "Do you consent to fornication at this time?" ...really? Sure, whatever, let's go with it. If that's the only way you know how to figure out consent, that's what you need to say. And I bet it will work more often than not, too. The solution is to teach people better ways to find out if their partner consents, not to say it doesn't matter. But a fifteen year old kid is likely not going to have a great first time no matter what. If you can't imagine a sexually active adult talking about sex in a sexy way, that's very much your problem. > Frankly, your advice makes you sound unbelievably young and inexperienced with women. I have yet to meet a woman that wants you ask permission for every stage of a sexual relationship. In fact, every woman I've talked to about the subject has told me that it's specifically unwanted. I'm not here for the dick waving contest, but suffice it to say my experience is not just with talking to women.
  - deleted 13y ago
ownagefool 13y ago
The problem with this advice is that the majority of woman in the majority of cultures will pretty much be put off by you asking. They do not want sex to be like that, go ahead, ask a woman. They want spontaneity, they want a man to take control, they want to feel desired. Actually demanding that consent be explicitly verbal suggests that you're a white knight who hasn't been with a lot of woman.
figglesonrails 13y ago
This advice leads to sexual assault? Come on. Yeah, in the strictest sense, you do not have a legal right to her bubble of space and she can charge you for sexual assault for leaning in for a kiss. OR, she can be a normal, non-litigious person and reject you. She can say "no", turn her head, take a step back, etc. and you know what, she won't be worse for the wear, mentally or physically. I promise! I mean, at that rate, a girl could indicate that she wants you to rub her off, but charge you for sexual assault because Simon Didn't Say Touch My Breasts. Good god, please let this never happen to anyone. Please, stop spreading advice that any and all action must be done with full and explicit consent. American society doesn't value that. Watch romance movies sometime. This is what girls grow up with. This is how many girls wish to be treated. They know how to operate in those scenarios. They understand the roles of each and have predefined expectations long before you meet them. They want their lives to play out like the most romantic scenes from their favorite movies. They want spontaneous adventure. They want unexpected trips and kisses in the rain. They want to stare in your eyes and for you to lean in. Defy these norms at your own risk. I mean, fundamentally, what you are saying is just that: go against cultural norms because it's better for the girl that way. Says who? You? Her? "Society"? Feminists? Movies? I, for one, do not buy this line of thinking. In the beginning, I expect relationships with people who aren't too sure about each other might well be represented by a series of try { } catch { } and throw CourtshipAdvanceNotAcceptedExceptions. Fine, this is par for the course. This is quite a bit different from throwing a lawsuit. The people you should worry about are the ones who after rejection occurs, grab their victim and proceed to force their actions anyways.
doki_pen 13y ago
Most humans can tell if the person they are with is into what they are doing or not. If you can't, then you have problems, maybe asperger or something, idk, not a doctor. I'm not endorsing this guy in any way. The entire thing seems sort of pathetic to me, to be honest. But honestly, it's probably hard to write about things that most people intuit.

by Cushman 13y ago

tomp 13y ago

I don't know about you, but I would prefer if things happened "naturally", without talking about it explicitly. Us sitting closer, slowly drawing our heads closer, lips touch, mouths open, kiss. It is, of course, somewhat sad that our culture taught us it's inappropriate and shameful to talk about sex, and that we're more comfortable having sex with someone than we are talking about sex. That's also why the most common advice on reddit.com/r/sex is "just talk to him/her". Btw, you realize, right, that with your comment you're promoting rape (according to your definition)? After all, a woman taking "explicit proactive action" without your explicit verbal consent is, the same as a man would if the situation was reversed, raping him. Have you ever touched someone without them giving you verbal consent? Rape! Please, that's absurd!

Cushman 13y ago
> I don't know about you, but I would prefer if things happened "naturally", without talking about it explicitly. Us sitting closer, slowly drawing our heads closer, lips touch, mouths open, kiss. I used to think that, too, as a teenager. Then I had sex with a bunch of people and realized, who gives a fuck? Sex is fun. It's fun when it happens spontaneously, with mutual passion. It's fun when it's discussed and scheduled ahead of time. It's just fun! As long as both people want to. Then I thought about some of those times things just happened "naturally", and I realized, I'm not really sure if she did want to. That's not fun. So now, if there's any doubt in my mind whatsoever, I just ask. I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. Because I'm even less interested in pressuring someone I really care about into something she doesn't want. And she will do the same for me. Guess what? Still fun. > Btw, you realize, right, that with your comment you're promoting rape (according to your definition)? After all, a woman taking "explicit proactive action" without your explicit verbal consent is, the same as a man would if the situation was reversed, raping him. Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this?
- tomp 13y ago
  > Yes. It goes both ways, regardless of gender. Did you expect me to disagree with this? Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it.
  - 300bps 13y ago
    >Well, the only thing I can say is that I'm glad I live in Europe, where people are still normal and not yet so frigid/distrustful that they need to talk about everything before they do it. Fortunately, it's like that in the U.S. too for most people. There is a very vocal minority here that is making things way more complicated than they actually are in real life. This was my favorite quote from the person you're responding to: >I'm in a committed, long-term relationship now, and I still ask her regularly if I'm not sure if she wants to. This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. To imply that to not receive explicit verbal affirmative permission is equal to rape is unbelievably insulting and delusional.
    - Cushman 13y ago
      > This is unbelievable to me. I think the typical woman confronted with this behavior would look for a new boyfriend - one that isn't so amazingly timid. As a married person I can't imagine asking my wife "regularly" for permission to have sex. I know her signals, she knows my signals and if either of us put out a signal the other person isn't up for we volunteer, "Not tonight" and that's the end of it. See, this is the problem. It's not "timid" to talk about sex. I know my girlfriend well, and she knows me, and if we're hanging out together and we're both down to fuck then it's on. Here's the other thing that happens: I'm in one room playing Starcraft, she's in the other room reading a book, and I start feeling a little randy. I'm not going to wander in there and try to get into her field of view to make eyes at her. If I just walk up and start touching her, and she's not into it, she'll feel irritated and I'll feel rejected and that's not good for us. So what I do instead is -- and to be clear, this happens about as often the other way around -- I say, hey, do you want to have sex? And she thinks about it for a second, and if she says "yes" we get naked and down to business. If she says "no", no hard feelings, I can go back to my game. If it's in between, like "not really" or "maybe later", we can have a quick chat about it and come to a decision together. Do you understand what I'm saying here? Me asking my girlfriend if she wants to have sex, and vice versa, means we have way more sex than we would if we both sat around waiting for the "signals". And we really like sex, so this is great for us. But I guess if you're married with kids, there are other reasons you can't relate to this. And since I'm here, rid that word "permission" from your vocabulary in this discussion. Permission is asked from a superior. Consent is a mutual arrangement between equals. Therein lies the core of this entire issue.

Samuel_Michon 13y ago

When you’ve gone out on several dates, you’ve kissed, she’s invited you to her home, and you’re now sitting on the couch with her, more often than not, the girl will expect the guy to take the initiative. By that time, asking her if you can touch her is a major downer for her. You’re expected to try something. If she didn’t want to fool around, you wouldn’t be there. That’s the context of the quotes, and in the book, it is prefaced by an instruction to stop immediately if she indicates you to do so.

Cushman 13y ago
That's great. So all you've gotta do is replace, "Try to have sex with her, and stop if she says no" with, "Find out if she wants to have sex with you, and do so if she does." The difference that makes to whether or not she consents -- the "downer" -- is precisely the point.
- theorique 13y ago
  Does this consent have to be verbal, or does active participation count? (e.g. Kissing back, tugging at or removing your clothing, unzipping your fly, etc) To me, those are clear evidence of a desire to progress toward sex. (Obviously, if she says stop, do so.)
  - tomp 13y ago
    Well, maybe active participation counts, but only if YOU give her verbal consent. Or that's the way I understand their argument...
    - theorique 13y ago
      Presumably, if "A" (male) is pushing forward and initiating sexual action, he's consenting ... the question is whether "B" (female) is also consenting. The question I'm asking is that if both parties are expressing 'forward motion' in terms of their actions and their body language, is it necessary to have verbal consent? Or are you violating consent if you assume their apparent physical interest substitutes for verbal consent?

angersock 13y ago

This is a very touchy subject, right? I'm going to try and convey my thoughts very carefully here, so please try and be receptive. (Context for this is for your bog-standard straight courting scenario--I do not feel qualified to comment on how courting for any other gender scenario works.) ~ In an ideal world, everybody would communicate honestly and openly. You could sit down with a girl, and have a conversation like so: "Hi, I think you're attractive and I enjoy your company. Would you be interested in pursuing a relationship, or if not, perhaps a shorter-term physical engagement?" "Yes/No/Not interested." This is, needless to say, not how 99.999% of the population works--as I, and I suspect others, have found to our dismay. Negotiating these sorts of things is not just a TCP ack sequence or something. The fact is that even were roles reversed, that is just not what we would consider a compelling user experience. Expecting explicit handshaking for every step of the relationship cycle is something only emotional robots expect. In an ideal world, the following things would be true: 1. People know what they want in a relationship. 2. People know how to convey what they want accurately to other people, especially in terms of arousal or courting. 3. People are free to signal availability or interest without repercussion, and accept rejection just as easily. These three things are obviously far, far from the case. ~ There are very much conflicting cultural mores about how courtship is supposed to work. On the one hand, we have hundreds and thousands of years of precedent (and perhaps biology, though I personally hope this is not the case) suggesting that the man is the one to initiate actions, and that the woman, if disinterested, will make her rejection known. Strictly speaking, we've got a bit more barbarous history behind us than that, but let's assume decent folk here to keep life simple. On the other hand, we've got this recent push for more explicit confirmation for consent and for the more equitable distribution of first-move-making between the man and the woman. These two things do not go together, and even worse, trying to come to a synthesis for your average inexperienced guy is a road which easily runs to ruin. So, instead we find ourselves in this curious place where young men who mean well want to get with young women who also mean well. Unfortunately, the women are brought up expecting that the men will do the work, initiate everything, and the men are increasingly told that hey need to--to be safe and respectful, mind you!--wait for explicit confirmation of every step. In programming terms, we are setting up for a deadlock. Perhaps even more troubling, the hilariously large impact of social networks and whatnot mean that gossip is worse than ever, and there is no room to make mistakes if you are one of these young men. Worse, media is constantly reinforcing some awful blend of these two mores, making both sides seek after a state of affairs that simply does not exist. There's some more issues I've seen, but you get the gist.

300bps 13y ago

>And for what? To avoid the embarrassment of saying, "So do you wanna fuck?" How old are you? I'm not the person you wrote this to, but I can answer that I am 41 years old, have been married for 11 years and have three children (including a daughter). When I think of the little scene you've played out there occurring, I see the biggest nerd in the world getting his first chance at making out with a girl when he awkwardly stops and says, "Do you consent to fornication at this time?" Frankly, your advice makes you sound unbelievably young and inexperienced with women. I have yet to meet a woman that wants you ask permission for every stage of a sexual relationship. In fact, every woman I've talked to about the subject has told me that it's specifically unwanted.

angersock 13y ago
"I see the biggest nerd in the world getting his first chance at making out with a girl when he awkwardly stops and says, "Do you consent to fornication at this time?"" Been there, done--basically--that. Damnedest thing; wouldn't you know that it didn't have the intended effect?
Cushman 13y ago
> When I think of the little scene you've played out there occurring, I see the biggest nerd in the world getting his first chance at making out with a girl when he awkwardly stops and says, "Do you consent to fornication at this time?" ...really? Sure, whatever, let's go with it. If that's the only way you know how to figure out consent, that's what you need to say. And I bet it will work more often than not, too. The solution is to teach people better ways to find out if their partner consents, not to say it doesn't matter. But a fifteen year old kid is likely not going to have a great first time no matter what. If you can't imagine a sexually active adult talking about sex in a sexy way, that's very much your problem. > Frankly, your advice makes you sound unbelievably young and inexperienced with women. I have yet to meet a woman that wants you ask permission for every stage of a sexual relationship. In fact, every woman I've talked to about the subject has told me that it's specifically unwanted. I'm not here for the dick waving contest, but suffice it to say my experience is not just with talking to women.
- deleted 13y ago

ownagefool 13y ago

The problem with this advice is that the majority of woman in the majority of cultures will pretty much be put off by you asking. They do not want sex to be like that, go ahead, ask a woman. They want spontaneity, they want a man to take control, they want to feel desired. Actually demanding that consent be explicitly verbal suggests that you're a white knight who hasn't been with a lot of woman.

figglesonrails 13y ago

This advice leads to sexual assault? Come on. Yeah, in the strictest sense, you do not have a legal right to her bubble of space and she can charge you for sexual assault for leaning in for a kiss. OR, she can be a normal, non-litigious person and reject you. She can say "no", turn her head, take a step back, etc. and you know what, she won't be worse for the wear, mentally or physically. I promise! I mean, at that rate, a girl could indicate that she wants you to rub her off, but charge you for sexual assault because Simon Didn't Say Touch My Breasts. Good god, please let this never happen to anyone. Please, stop spreading advice that any and all action must be done with full and explicit consent. American society doesn't value that. Watch romance movies sometime. This is what girls grow up with. This is how many girls wish to be treated. They know how to operate in those scenarios. They understand the roles of each and have predefined expectations long before you meet them. They want their lives to play out like the most romantic scenes from their favorite movies. They want spontaneous adventure. They want unexpected trips and kisses in the rain. They want to stare in your eyes and for you to lean in. Defy these norms at your own risk. I mean, fundamentally, what you are saying is just that: go against cultural norms because it's better for the girl that way. Says who? You? Her? "Society"? Feminists? Movies? I, for one, do not buy this line of thinking. In the beginning, I expect relationships with people who aren't too sure about each other might well be represented by a series of try { } catch { } and throw CourtshipAdvanceNotAcceptedExceptions. Fine, this is par for the course. This is quite a bit different from throwing a lawsuit. The people you should worry about are the ones who after rejection occurs, grab their victim and proceed to force their actions anyways.

doki_pen 13y ago

Most humans can tell if the person they are with is into what they are doing or not. If you can't, then you have problems, maybe asperger or something, idk, not a doctor. I'm not endorsing this guy in any way. The entire thing seems sort of pathetic to me, to be honest. But honestly, it's probably hard to write about things that most people intuit.