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I won't touch the issue of whether the action was right or wrong here on Hacker News, but I think everyone has to admit that this is a brilliant example of an a

by gilrain 13y ago

I won't touch the issue of whether the action was right or wrong here on Hacker News, but I think everyone has to admit that this is a brilliant example of an apology done well. They do not equivocate (the "sorry you were offended" apology) and they take direct action to fix what their users felt was wrong (new policy made) as well as somewhat atone for the original offense (donation to RAINN). It's also written simply but very skillfully: zero weasel words or anything. I happen to agree with the action taken, but bravo in any case for the brilliant apology!

scrrr 13y ago
You are right about this being a good apology, but I think placing to much value on a good apology is not healthy. We are already living in a world where words, promises and good intentions matter too much. In the end, actions matter most. In fact, they are the ONLY thing that matters. I prefer a company with a good track record that issues bad or no apologies to a company with a bad record, but great apologies for all of their mistakes. I'm not saying anything about kickstarter.com here. I just want to make a point about, and I'm saying this with a wink, apology-porn.
- cwp 13y ago
  You're right that actions matter. Part of what makes this a good apology are the actions that back it up. They took meaningful action to redress the harm they caused, and put a policy in place to prevent the mistake from recurring. It's awfully hard to build up a record of bad actions followed by good apologies, because good apologies are more than just words. But I think words are important too. The folks at Kickstarter clearly regret not having cancelled the project before it was funded, and that comes through in their apology. They gave the reasons for their failure, without turning them into excuses. That kind of sincerity is rare, and it's important. I'd rather see companies defend their actions when they believe they were right, sincerely apologize when they believe they were wrong, and never issue insincere non-apologies.
tomjen3 13y ago
I don't see it as brilliant, I see it as a giant foot-in-mouth situation (which may be colored by the fact that I don't have a problem with seduction guides in general, and haven't seen the material in question) - until now Kickstarter has been neutral on legal content so if I see something I don't like, well too bad, but now there is a precedent for removing something because somebody finds it offensive, but others like it; so now they either have to issue an apology and retract the next offensive thing (say a t-shirt commemorating the ban on assault weapons) or lose their stance as neutral. If they had instead issued a non-apology-apology they would have been of the hock.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > until now Kickstarter has been neutral on legal content No it hasn't. They've had clear policies about certain types of content. They even say in this blog that if they'd seen the Reddit material when the KickStarter had been created they would not have allowed it.
- bmelton 13y ago
  Agreed. The more dangerous precedent is that they are willing to cave to a vocal group who may or may not be right. Without defending the material, because I frankly can't, I am troubled to see Kickstarter imposing its own value judgements on projects, and even worse than that, now subject themselves to the value judgements of whichever populace can prove to be the most vocal.
  - merlincorey 13y ago
    The author defends it pretty well. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape. http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe
  - shiven 13y ago
bthomas 13y ago
I'd normally agree with your rules for an apology (eg. after a breach) but in this case I think their aggressive tone creates a Streisand effect. I for one had never heard of this guy. He certainly seems to be gaining some fans among commenters here. I worry that their post will only increase book sales...

by gilrain 13y ago

scrrr 13y ago

You are right about this being a good apology, but I think placing to much value on a good apology is not healthy. We are already living in a world where words, promises and good intentions matter too much. In the end, actions matter most. In fact, they are the ONLY thing that matters. I prefer a company with a good track record that issues bad or no apologies to a company with a bad record, but great apologies for all of their mistakes. I'm not saying anything about kickstarter.com here. I just want to make a point about, and I'm saying this with a wink, apology-porn.

cwp 13y ago
You're right that actions matter. Part of what makes this a good apology are the actions that back it up. They took meaningful action to redress the harm they caused, and put a policy in place to prevent the mistake from recurring. It's awfully hard to build up a record of bad actions followed by good apologies, because good apologies are more than just words. But I think words are important too. The folks at Kickstarter clearly regret not having cancelled the project before it was funded, and that comes through in their apology. They gave the reasons for their failure, without turning them into excuses. That kind of sincerity is rare, and it's important. I'd rather see companies defend their actions when they believe they were right, sincerely apologize when they believe they were wrong, and never issue insincere non-apologies.

tomjen3 13y ago

I don't see it as brilliant, I see it as a giant foot-in-mouth situation (which may be colored by the fact that I don't have a problem with seduction guides in general, and haven't seen the material in question) - until now Kickstarter has been neutral on legal content so if I see something I don't like, well too bad, but now there is a precedent for removing something because somebody finds it offensive, but others like it; so now they either have to issue an apology and retract the next offensive thing (say a t-shirt commemorating the ban on assault weapons) or lose their stance as neutral. If they had instead issued a non-apology-apology they would have been of the hock.

DanBC 13y ago
> until now Kickstarter has been neutral on legal content No it hasn't. They've had clear policies about certain types of content. They even say in this blog that if they'd seen the Reddit material when the KickStarter had been created they would not have allowed it.
bmelton 13y ago
Agreed. The more dangerous precedent is that they are willing to cave to a vocal group who may or may not be right. Without defending the material, because I frankly can't, I am troubled to see Kickstarter imposing its own value judgements on projects, and even worse than that, now subject themselves to the value judgements of whichever populace can prove to be the most vocal.
- merlincorey 13y ago
  The author defends it pretty well. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape. http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe
- shiven 13y ago

bthomas 13y ago

I'd normally agree with your rules for an apology (eg. after a breach) but in this case I think their aggressive tone creates a Streisand effect. I for one had never heard of this guy. He certainly seems to be gaining some fans among commenters here. I worry that their post will only increase book sales...