6 ms·

Jesus, seems like an over reaction. Books and guides like this are nothing new, and should be taken in context/used appropriately. A nerd in a club is going to

by xauronx 13y ago

Jesus, seems like an over reaction. Books and guides like this are nothing new, and should be taken in context/used appropriately. A nerd in a club is going to take this brash advice like: "All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye contact, and were shameless in their physicality." And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library. Anyhow, I'm a nerd with a SO that has never drank and hates night clubs but that's my take. Seems like any other topic and people would be crying free speech and censorship. A guide like this isn't going to turn a normal man into a rapist.

ebiester 13y ago
The excerpted quotes of advice were pretty damn rapey. The problem is that many (every one I've seen) of these "seduction" manuals are written in a way that is hostile toward women.
- angersock 13y ago
  Would you mind listing some of the quotes you found "rapey"?
  - citricsquid 13y ago
    The blog post linked from the kickstarter blog post includes lots of examples of what most people would consider to be "rapey" “Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.” http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-harmless http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-...
    - angersock 13y ago
      According to the author, that was taken from a section on what to do once already in a private setting: "The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around." Out of context, yes, that's awfully rude. But, given the predicating situation, it is not nearly as much so.
      - mindstab 13y ago
        You are aware rape usually occurs in private settings. Just because some one has decided to go to a private place with you does not mean they've given consent. And this kind of behavioural priming will gear men to steam roll over someone who isn't giving consent, hence sexual assault.
        xauronx 13y ago
        He doesn't say "Now, get her somewhere no one can hear her. Be sure to have your duct tape handy and then force your hand down her pants..." It's a piece of advice on how to start being physical with a girl you're dating. So many guys will have a girl that's interested over to drink and watch a movie and just sit there a couch cushion away. Put yourself in your 16-20 year old shoes.
        cbendeb 13y ago
        I'm assuming you don't really think that all rape involves having duct tape handy or making sure you're where nobody can hear her. A comment like this presumes that rape must be violent to be rape; that's simply not true.
    - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
      I think "rapey" would be more appropriate here if that escalated to holding her down, forcing her clothes off and violating her. Instead, a lot of women enjoy that kind of interaction when you're already fooling around(which is what section of the guide its from) - and if they don't, they can quite easily refuse such an advance in a number of ways.
  - munin 13y ago
    sure! “Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.“
    - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
      Don't bother including the context of that, it would ruin the 'rapey' narrative.
      - hamax 13y ago
        Not even a bit.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
lewispollard 13y ago
I would guess that people buying a seduction guide don't really understand 'women' - in that they believe that women are somehow different, unapproachable and alien to them. The misogyny stems from the book not teaching these people that women are equal and worthy of respect, but instead teaching them to ignore consent and be an 'alpha bro' stereotype.
- cgag 13y ago
  You don't have to disrespect women to understand that they largely want the guy to make the first move. I don't get what all the hate here is about.
  - lewispollard 13y ago
    To me, that sounds like 'generalisations about women aren't disrespectful to women' - maybe it's a cultural thing or just the social circles I hang around with but I find it sexist.
- xauronx 13y ago
  I don't see it as ignoring consent. If you're on a date with a girl and you hold her hand without asking her, that's not sexual assault or being an alpha bro. If you're having a lively conversation and touch her arm, that's not sexual assault or creepiness, it's being a human and engaging the person you're interacting with. We all know douche bags that make girls uncomfortable and push the line. We all hate them. They've probably (almost definitely) never read this book. A book/guide like this isn't a bro factory, and won't do anything to an existing bro that a night out with another bro wouldn't do. Should timid guys trying to seek a companion try to emulate some portion of it? Probably. Friend-zoning is big with timid guys because they never broach the physical bubble. If a nervous guy aims to emulate 100% of this advice they'll probably successfully emulate 20% of it.
  - lewispollard 13y ago
    I guess my problem with it is if you're writing a book to educate nervous, timid, perhaps less experienced guys about interactions with people you're attracted to, it'd be nice to educate them in a way that teaches respect and kindness, not objectification
kamjam 13y ago
This. Seems like a few lines taken out of context, and you can make anything seem bad if you take it out of context. Sex - Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick. - http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/ http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... Sounds bad out of context sure, but in context he is talking about when you are about to have sex with the woman, in a private location (or whatever). You are in the act of it, not forcing yourself on a woman you just met in a bar. Personally, I can see nothing wrong with this. Sure, the wording could possibly be better or less crass maybe, but if the book was to go to publish then there would be the time to go through that phase. All books go through edits. Usual overreaction to everything that may seem slightly anti-feminist. As josh2600 says above, there are similar books to this already, maybe we should start rallying Amazon et al too? http://www.amazon.com/The-Game-Penetrating-Society-Artists/dp/0060554738/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Game-Penetrating-Society-Artists/d... http://www.amazon.com/The-Pickup-Artist-Improved-Seduction/dp/0345518195/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Pickup-Artist-Improved-Seduction/d... http://www.themysterymethod.com/ http://www.themysterymethod.com/
king_jester 13y ago
> And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library. Touching someone you don't know is a no-no and many people find that form of contact (even in a night club) to be disturbing. Touching someone without their permission is just something you shouldn't be doing.
- rlt 13y ago
  Oh please, we're now comparing touching someone's shoulder in a night club with sexual assault? If you don't want any contact at all with other human beings you probably shouldn't be in a night club.
  - xauronx 13y ago
    Or anywhere in the public for that matter.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    There is a difference between accidental contact from being in public and having someone intentionally do the kind of shit the kickstarter project was advocating. Also, being at a night club is not an automatic invitation to touch someone, saying so is implying that women deserve the unwanted contact put upon them.
- papsosouid 13y ago
  See, this is exactly the sort of ridiculous, reactionary nonsense at the heart of these crusades. No, touching someone's shoulder is not rape. You may define yourself as the moral minority, selflessly protecting everyone from imaginary evils, but your opinion is a tiny, minuscule, insignificant minority. Virtually everyone disagrees with you.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    I didn't say touching someone's shoulder was rape, but you don't have the right to touch someone if they don't want you to or have affirmed that you may.

by xauronx 13y ago

ebiester 13y ago

The excerpted quotes of advice were pretty damn rapey. The problem is that many (every one I've seen) of these "seduction" manuals are written in a way that is hostile toward women.

angersock 13y ago
Would you mind listing some of the quotes you found "rapey"?
- citricsquid 13y ago
  The blog post linked from the kickstarter blog post includes lots of examples of what most people would consider to be "rapey" “Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.” http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-harmless http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-...
  - angersock 13y ago
    According to the author, that was taken from a section on what to do once already in a private setting: "The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around." Out of context, yes, that's awfully rude. But, given the predicating situation, it is not nearly as much so.
    - mindstab 13y ago
      You are aware rape usually occurs in private settings. Just because some one has decided to go to a private place with you does not mean they've given consent. And this kind of behavioural priming will gear men to steam roll over someone who isn't giving consent, hence sexual assault.
      - xauronx 13y ago
        He doesn't say "Now, get her somewhere no one can hear her. Be sure to have your duct tape handy and then force your hand down her pants..." It's a piece of advice on how to start being physical with a girl you're dating. So many guys will have a girl that's interested over to drink and watch a movie and just sit there a couch cushion away. Put yourself in your 16-20 year old shoes.
        cbendeb 13y ago
        I'm assuming you don't really think that all rape involves having duct tape handy or making sure you're where nobody can hear her. A comment like this presumes that rape must be violent to be rape; that's simply not true.
  - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
    I think "rapey" would be more appropriate here if that escalated to holding her down, forcing her clothes off and violating her. Instead, a lot of women enjoy that kind of interaction when you're already fooling around(which is what section of the guide its from) - and if they don't, they can quite easily refuse such an advance in a number of ways.
- munin 13y ago
  sure! “Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.“
  - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
    Don't bother including the context of that, it would ruin the 'rapey' narrative.
    - hamax 13y ago
      Not even a bit.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

lewispollard 13y ago

I would guess that people buying a seduction guide don't really understand 'women' - in that they believe that women are somehow different, unapproachable and alien to them. The misogyny stems from the book not teaching these people that women are equal and worthy of respect, but instead teaching them to ignore consent and be an 'alpha bro' stereotype.

cgag 13y ago
You don't have to disrespect women to understand that they largely want the guy to make the first move. I don't get what all the hate here is about.
- lewispollard 13y ago
  To me, that sounds like 'generalisations about women aren't disrespectful to women' - maybe it's a cultural thing or just the social circles I hang around with but I find it sexist.
xauronx 13y ago
I don't see it as ignoring consent. If you're on a date with a girl and you hold her hand without asking her, that's not sexual assault or being an alpha bro. If you're having a lively conversation and touch her arm, that's not sexual assault or creepiness, it's being a human and engaging the person you're interacting with. We all know douche bags that make girls uncomfortable and push the line. We all hate them. They've probably (almost definitely) never read this book. A book/guide like this isn't a bro factory, and won't do anything to an existing bro that a night out with another bro wouldn't do. Should timid guys trying to seek a companion try to emulate some portion of it? Probably. Friend-zoning is big with timid guys because they never broach the physical bubble. If a nervous guy aims to emulate 100% of this advice they'll probably successfully emulate 20% of it.
- lewispollard 13y ago
  I guess my problem with it is if you're writing a book to educate nervous, timid, perhaps less experienced guys about interactions with people you're attracted to, it'd be nice to educate them in a way that teaches respect and kindness, not objectification

kamjam 13y ago

This. Seems like a few lines taken out of context, and you can make anything seem bad if you take it out of context. Sex - Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick. - http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/ http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... Sounds bad out of context sure, but in context he is talking about when you are about to have sex with the woman, in a private location (or whatever). You are in the act of it, not forcing yourself on a woman you just met in a bar. Personally, I can see nothing wrong with this. Sure, the wording could possibly be better or less crass maybe, but if the book was to go to publish then there would be the time to go through that phase. All books go through edits. Usual overreaction to everything that may seem slightly anti-feminist. As josh2600 says above, there are similar books to this already, maybe we should start rallying Amazon et al too? http://www.amazon.com/The-Game-Penetrating-Society-Artists/dp/0060554738/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Game-Penetrating-Society-Artists/d... http://www.amazon.com/The-Pickup-Artist-Improved-Seduction/dp/0345518195/ http://www.amazon.com/The-Pickup-Artist-Improved-Seduction/d... http://www.themysterymethod.com/ http://www.themysterymethod.com/

king_jester 13y ago

> And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library. Touching someone you don't know is a no-no and many people find that form of contact (even in a night club) to be disturbing. Touching someone without their permission is just something you shouldn't be doing.

rlt 13y ago
Oh please, we're now comparing touching someone's shoulder in a night club with sexual assault? If you don't want any contact at all with other human beings you probably shouldn't be in a night club.
- xauronx 13y ago
  Or anywhere in the public for that matter.
- king_jester 13y ago
  There is a difference between accidental contact from being in public and having someone intentionally do the kind of shit the kickstarter project was advocating. Also, being at a night club is not an automatic invitation to touch someone, saying so is implying that women deserve the unwanted contact put upon them.
papsosouid 13y ago
See, this is exactly the sort of ridiculous, reactionary nonsense at the heart of these crusades. No, touching someone's shoulder is not rape. You may define yourself as the moral minority, selflessly protecting everyone from imaginary evils, but your opinion is a tiny, minuscule, insignificant minority. Virtually everyone disagrees with you.
- king_jester 13y ago
  I didn't say touching someone's shoulder was rape, but you don't have the right to touch someone if they don't want you to or have affirmed that you may.