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The Atlantic is kinda kidding themselves if they think merely bringing on Democratic judges would make it more 'balanced'. Both parties seem hostile to privacy

The Atlantic is kinda kidding themselves if they think merely bringing on Democratic judges would make it more 'balanced'. Both parties seem hostile to privacy rights right now (or at least, the primary movers of each party do).

ck2 13y ago
Well they are stating the facts. But if a court for example is all white, male, republicans, you are in danger of "dittoheads" cut from the same cloth. Their names suggest 4 women which is almost acceptable. Cannot guess anything else. The minimal number of requests that are modified by the court has led experts to characterize it as a rubber stamp. For example, Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst said "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Court#Criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Court#Criticism One Democrat resigned: On December 16, 2005, the New York Times reported that the Bush administration had been conducting surveillance against US citizens without the knowledge of the court since 2002. On December 20, 2005, Judge James Robertson resigned his position with the court, apparently in protest of the secret surveillance. The government's apparent circumvention of the court started prior to the increase in court-ordered modifications to warrant requests.
- joyeuse6701 13y ago
  so...we're going to hope they have diverse opinions based on their pigment, sex, and political affiliation? Why is profiling in this case acceptable. Besides, didn't the court rule that these actions taken by government were unconstitutional? Would you have preferred a different outcome?
  - ck2 13y ago
    The court has only rejected or modified a handful of requests out of tens of thousands. Something is clearly wrong.
  - lukeschlather 13y ago
    The composition of the court based on pigment, sex, and political affiliation makes it pretty clear that profiling was used to select the court members. The point isn't that they would have diverse opinions otherwise, the point is they were obviously selected to have homogeneous opinions. As if that wasn't bad enough it's obvious that they were selected using ethnic profiling, if not sexism.
    - zhemao 13y ago
      How on earth could you conclude that? It's a group of 14 people. It isn't terribly unlikely that they weren't chosen solely on race and gender. Not to mention that they're all federal judges, and the federal judiciary isn't well known for its diversity.
      - pessimizer 13y ago
        >the federal judiciary isn't well known for its diversity. Are you arguing that there's not profiling, or at what level the profiling begins?
        zhemao 13y ago
        What exactly do you mean by profiling? Do you mean deliberately choosing a group of people so that they all fit a certain set of demographic criteria? If so, then I am arguing that there is not necessarily profiling going on. Just because a group is skewed demographically doesn't mean there is active profiling going on. There could be unconscious biases or other effects at play. I don't disagree that they were probably chosen to have homogeneous opinions. I do disagree that there is clear evidence of ethnic or gender profiling. I think they just said "we need experienced judges who can be trusted to keep things secret and have strongly favorable views towards law enforcement and intelligence services." It happens that most such people are old, White, Republican men.
- Camillo 13y ago
  I can see the "republican" part, since they have to deal with requests from the government, but "white" and "male"? Do sex and race really have that much bearing on one's thinking about legal matters, especially at the ostensibly high level of a federal court?
  - ck2 13y ago
    We have people stop-and-frisked for being black and people being taken off planes for flying-while-muslim. You don't think race has anything to do with how people experience things in this world?
    - cobrausn 13y ago
      I am straight, white, formerly republican, and find all of those things apalling when they happen. I didn't need to get burned by the fire to recognize that it burns.
      - pessimizer 13y ago
        Many people do.
      - gohrt 13y ago
        You are unfortunately a rare, um, breed.
        cobrausn 13y ago
        Wait, did I just get racially profiled?
  - jonknee 13y ago
    Do you honestly not see any advantage of having people with a range of life experiences on a court? Especially on a court that is primarily tasked with making secret rulings to spy on [mostly] non-white people.
  - malandrew 13y ago
malandrew 13y ago
I really really wish we would push for a model of oversight like that the Romans adopted when they appointed ordinary everyday citizens like Cincinnatus appointed as temporary dictator in times of distress [0] This court should have oversight of peers, not career politicians with entrenched interests. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus

ck2 13y ago

Well they are stating the facts. But if a court for example is all white, male, republicans, you are in danger of "dittoheads" cut from the same cloth. Their names suggest 4 women which is almost acceptable. Cannot guess anything else. The minimal number of requests that are modified by the court has led experts to characterize it as a rubber stamp. For example, Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst said "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Court#Criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Court#Criticism One Democrat resigned: On December 16, 2005, the New York Times reported that the Bush administration had been conducting surveillance against US citizens without the knowledge of the court since 2002. On December 20, 2005, Judge James Robertson resigned his position with the court, apparently in protest of the secret surveillance. The government's apparent circumvention of the court started prior to the increase in court-ordered modifications to warrant requests.

joyeuse6701 13y ago
so...we're going to hope they have diverse opinions based on their pigment, sex, and political affiliation? Why is profiling in this case acceptable. Besides, didn't the court rule that these actions taken by government were unconstitutional? Would you have preferred a different outcome?
- ck2 13y ago
  The court has only rejected or modified a handful of requests out of tens of thousands. Something is clearly wrong.
- lukeschlather 13y ago
  The composition of the court based on pigment, sex, and political affiliation makes it pretty clear that profiling was used to select the court members. The point isn't that they would have diverse opinions otherwise, the point is they were obviously selected to have homogeneous opinions. As if that wasn't bad enough it's obvious that they were selected using ethnic profiling, if not sexism.
  - zhemao 13y ago
    How on earth could you conclude that? It's a group of 14 people. It isn't terribly unlikely that they weren't chosen solely on race and gender. Not to mention that they're all federal judges, and the federal judiciary isn't well known for its diversity.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      >the federal judiciary isn't well known for its diversity. Are you arguing that there's not profiling, or at what level the profiling begins?
      - zhemao 13y ago
        What exactly do you mean by profiling? Do you mean deliberately choosing a group of people so that they all fit a certain set of demographic criteria? If so, then I am arguing that there is not necessarily profiling going on. Just because a group is skewed demographically doesn't mean there is active profiling going on. There could be unconscious biases or other effects at play. I don't disagree that they were probably chosen to have homogeneous opinions. I do disagree that there is clear evidence of ethnic or gender profiling. I think they just said "we need experienced judges who can be trusted to keep things secret and have strongly favorable views towards law enforcement and intelligence services." It happens that most such people are old, White, Republican men.
Camillo 13y ago
I can see the "republican" part, since they have to deal with requests from the government, but "white" and "male"? Do sex and race really have that much bearing on one's thinking about legal matters, especially at the ostensibly high level of a federal court?
- ck2 13y ago
  We have people stop-and-frisked for being black and people being taken off planes for flying-while-muslim. You don't think race has anything to do with how people experience things in this world?
  - cobrausn 13y ago
    I am straight, white, formerly republican, and find all of those things apalling when they happen. I didn't need to get burned by the fire to recognize that it burns.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      Many people do.
    - gohrt 13y ago
      You are unfortunately a rare, um, breed.
      - cobrausn 13y ago
        Wait, did I just get racially profiled?
- jonknee 13y ago
  Do you honestly not see any advantage of having people with a range of life experiences on a court? Especially on a court that is primarily tasked with making secret rulings to spy on [mostly] non-white people.
- malandrew 13y ago

malandrew 13y ago

I really really wish we would push for a model of oversight like that the Romans adopted when they appointed ordinary everyday citizens like Cincinnatus appointed as temporary dictator in times of distress [0] This court should have oversight of peers, not career politicians with entrenched interests. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus