5 ms·

This shouldn't be a surprise at all. Using Tor hides your location, so they assume you are foreign unless proven otherwise. If I were to agree with the law that

by mfwoods 13y ago

This shouldn't be a surprise at all. Using Tor hides your location, so they assume you are foreign unless proven otherwise. If I were to agree with the law that allows all of the snooping that the NSA does, I'd say this is pretty reasonable. As a European, what I find more disturbing about all the news about PRISM and related programs, is how US centric the reports about it are and how little other western governments are objecting to all of this. We are always told how the USA is the EU's biggest ally, yet US politicians try to legitimize everything by saying it's only non-US citizens they spy on, and say it like then it's suddenly okay. I get that some spying is a necessary evil and 100% freedom and privacy is not feasible, especially if there are nations that are less than friendly towards you. But that's a whole different thing than recording as much data as possible, especially from friendly nations. I don't think many friendships would survive if it turned out your best friend has been hiring private investigators with the goal to records as much of your life as possible.

jlgreco 13y ago
> This shouldn't be a surprise at all. Using Tor hides your location, so they assume you are foreign unless proven otherwise. That covers Tor, but not the rest... > As a European, what I find more disturbing about all the news about PRISM and related programs, is how US centric the reports Agreed. I worry that the American government has done damage to the cause of globalisation that will take a very long time to heal. This is a problem for us all.
- D9u 13y ago
  Just what is the cause of globalisation given the current political & economic climate? Is it global surveillance? Military domination? Economic centralization? Or is it something more benign?
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Economic and travel freedom? Mutual understanding and the exchange of culture?
- mpyne 13y ago
  Don't take this the wrong way, but you mention the effect on globalization as if it were obvious that the damage should worry the American government. On the contrary, the U.S. has vacillated between isolationism and interacting with other nations before. I don't know if you've been over to the U.S. but we have a stunningly large continent of people who feel that it is absolutely treasonous to give foreign aid at all to other nations (especially ones like Egypt and Pakistan) while there are still the poor within domestic boundaries. The people worried about globalization are in large corporations. Even many of our liberals see "globalization" as a code term for "child labor" and "sweatshops".
  - rayiner 13y ago
    > Even many of our liberals see "globalization" as a code term for "child labor" and "sweatshops". Right. Globalization can be used as a powerful force to subvert or bypass democracy, and to create a worldwide "race to the bottom."
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > Don't take this the wrong way, but you mention the effect on globalization as if it were obvious that the damage should worry the American government Oh, certainly not. I don't think they are or will be concerned...
rayiner 13y ago
> yet US politicians try to legitimize everything by saying it's only non-US citizens they spy on, and say it like then it's suddenly okay. Not so much that it makes things "okay" but that it makes things "legal." The NSA isn't supposed to spy on U.S. citizens, that's outside its scope of operation.
_djo_ 13y ago
It's less of a big deal because states spy on other states, even their allies. It has been that way since the beginning and everyone usually turns a blind eye unless it either gets leaked and causes embarrassment or it results in a real security risk as in the case of Pollard. Every one of the countries currently lodging complaints over the story of the UK's GCHQ hacking G20 delegates possesses a communications intelligence organisation whose mandate is to spy on foreign states and on foreign people. That includes my own country, which has complained loudly while conveniently forgetting about the National Communications Centre whose purpose is to do exactly that sort of thing. They've also forgotten about some surveillance equipment that was discovered outside the German embassy about a decade ago. So it's the way things are and have always been. You spy on your allies (very discreetly!) because that's how you maintain confidence in them remaining your allies.
- mfwoods 13y ago
  Sure, I agree that governments spying on other governments is something that is a necessary evil up to a certain point. In my opinion this is vastly different from a government reading and storing pretty much all foreign communication they can get their hands on from an allied state citizens though, something I understand the USA/NSA seems to be doing.
  - _djo_ 13y ago
    Thing is though, that doesn't matter. No country places any restrictions on whether the foreigners its spy services monitor are part of a foreign government or not because it wouldn't make any sense. To use a pertinent example, none of the dozens of countries trying to intercept al-Qaeda communications cares which country they're in as long (in most cases) as they're not domestic. So what the NSA is doing to foreign citizens is no different to what every other country with the means does. My country will happily (and legally) spy on American citizens indiscriminately if it feels the need to, as will all of Europe.

by mfwoods 13y ago

jlgreco 13y ago

> This shouldn't be a surprise at all. Using Tor hides your location, so they assume you are foreign unless proven otherwise. That covers Tor, but not the rest... > As a European, what I find more disturbing about all the news about PRISM and related programs, is how US centric the reports Agreed. I worry that the American government has done damage to the cause of globalisation that will take a very long time to heal. This is a problem for us all.

D9u 13y ago
Just what is the cause of globalisation given the current political & economic climate? Is it global surveillance? Military domination? Economic centralization? Or is it something more benign?
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Economic and travel freedom? Mutual understanding and the exchange of culture?
mpyne 13y ago
Don't take this the wrong way, but you mention the effect on globalization as if it were obvious that the damage should worry the American government. On the contrary, the U.S. has vacillated between isolationism and interacting with other nations before. I don't know if you've been over to the U.S. but we have a stunningly large continent of people who feel that it is absolutely treasonous to give foreign aid at all to other nations (especially ones like Egypt and Pakistan) while there are still the poor within domestic boundaries. The people worried about globalization are in large corporations. Even many of our liberals see "globalization" as a code term for "child labor" and "sweatshops".
- rayiner 13y ago
  > Even many of our liberals see "globalization" as a code term for "child labor" and "sweatshops". Right. Globalization can be used as a powerful force to subvert or bypass democracy, and to create a worldwide "race to the bottom."
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > Don't take this the wrong way, but you mention the effect on globalization as if it were obvious that the damage should worry the American government Oh, certainly not. I don't think they are or will be concerned...

rayiner 13y ago

> yet US politicians try to legitimize everything by saying it's only non-US citizens they spy on, and say it like then it's suddenly okay. Not so much that it makes things "okay" but that it makes things "legal." The NSA isn't supposed to spy on U.S. citizens, that's outside its scope of operation.

_djo_ 13y ago

It's less of a big deal because states spy on other states, even their allies. It has been that way since the beginning and everyone usually turns a blind eye unless it either gets leaked and causes embarrassment or it results in a real security risk as in the case of Pollard. Every one of the countries currently lodging complaints over the story of the UK's GCHQ hacking G20 delegates possesses a communications intelligence organisation whose mandate is to spy on foreign states and on foreign people. That includes my own country, which has complained loudly while conveniently forgetting about the National Communications Centre whose purpose is to do exactly that sort of thing. They've also forgotten about some surveillance equipment that was discovered outside the German embassy about a decade ago. So it's the way things are and have always been. You spy on your allies (very discreetly!) because that's how you maintain confidence in them remaining your allies.

mfwoods 13y ago
Sure, I agree that governments spying on other governments is something that is a necessary evil up to a certain point. In my opinion this is vastly different from a government reading and storing pretty much all foreign communication they can get their hands on from an allied state citizens though, something I understand the USA/NSA seems to be doing.
- _djo_ 13y ago
  Thing is though, that doesn't matter. No country places any restrictions on whether the foreigners its spy services monitor are part of a foreign government or not because it wouldn't make any sense. To use a pertinent example, none of the dozens of countries trying to intercept al-Qaeda communications cares which country they're in as long (in most cases) as they're not domestic. So what the NSA is doing to foreign citizens is no different to what every other country with the means does. My country will happily (and legally) spy on American citizens indiscriminately if it feels the need to, as will all of Europe.