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that's something i closely relate to verbal expression. the first thing you need to structure are your thoughts. so i simply ask them to describe to me a system
by bsaul 13y ago
that's something i closely relate to verbal expression. the first thing you need to structure are your thoughts. so i simply ask them to describe to me a system they've previously built. if the language is clear, then so are the thoughts and so most likely will the code be.
- RivieraKid 13y agoAre you really sure that this isn't a myth? I often have problem expressing myself, finding the right words, but I am quite a good programmer.
- bsaul 13y agoWell, it's probably not equivalent, but it's a good hint (aka : you can't express clearly something that isn't well structured in your mind). Plus, it also let me test verbal skills themselves, which is extremely important as soon as you're working in a team. Another way of looking at it is that "finding the right word" often means find the good "fit" between abstract concepts shapes or feelings, and a construct of known language items. That's precisely what you're doing as a developer.
- RivieraKid 13y agoOk, so it's based on reasoning full of assumptions that may be wrong, not on empirical evidence. For me, it's quite hard to think aloud when solving some problem, because it forces me to translate what goes in my mind into words, which is quite distracting, I cannot fully immerse into the problem.
- bsaul 13y agoI suppose you're more a "tool" developper than a "business process automation" one. In the latter, you very often have to talk through the problem with your customer. But it is an assumption indeed... Only it is based on my personnal experience. As for the comment mentionning google developpers, the ones i see are good enough verbally to talk about their jobs at google i/o.
- kaoD 13y agoThat you're "quite a good programmer" might be a myth too :P
- RivieraKid 13y agoI don't think so, because I've developed some quite popular software and done well in programming contests.
- kaoD 13y agoProgramming contests show nothing about your organizational skills, which is what companies should be looking for. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5911235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5911235 Mathematicians perform very well on programming contests, but they are usually terrible software engineers. Anyways, I was just kidding :)
- victorhn 13y agoGoogle is full of engineers that did well on programming contests, they even have their own contest, and i don't think they are all terrible software engineers.
- kaoD 13y agohttp://qz.com/96206/google-admits-those-infamous-brainteasers-were-completely-useless-for-hiring/ http://qz.com/96206/google-admits-those-infamous-brainteaser...
- victorhn 13y agoI don't think the problems in algorithmics contests are in the category of brainteasers. As far as i know Google still relies heavily on knowledge of algorithms and problem solving capability to hire their engineers.
- 13y ago
- ArekDymalski 13y agoI'm afraid that assessment of programming skills based on verbal expression makes you vulnerable to many errors and biases. Sure, you'll quickly filter out incompetent candidates but along with them you'll most likely flush out some really good ones, because programming and communication are two different competences and they doesn't have to be correlated. At least not positively ;) Plus, it's generally bad idea to assess two competences on one observed behavior. You're "saving time" on the expense of clarity and precision of judgement.
- bsaul 13y agoDon't worry, my recruitment interview also include algorithm and data structure quizz. But when i do, it's in front of computer, and i'm sitting right next to the candidate while he taps, to see his line of reasoning. Then, if he's in trouble, we talk about it, i give him hints, and see if he understand what i'm saying and fix the code.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]