5 ms·

Old Japanese maps on Google Earth unveil prejudices

41 points by juanpablo 17y ago

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
soundsop 17y ago
About the Japan's buraku: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=436453 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=436453
ekiru 17y ago
The bizarre thing about the complaints about the maps is that Matsuoka initially criticized Google for displaying the maps and even complained to the Justice Minister about them, but when the references to burakumin communities about which he complained were removed, a representative of the organization of which he is secretary-general asserted that removing them was an act of prejudice. It seems as though there is nothing Google can do regarding these maps besides not making them available. In a situation in which the only option that would not be considered prejudiced is to not provide useful information, the complainers are probably being oversensitive. The information about discrimination against descendants of burakumin in Japan does somewhat justify their oversensitivity, but prejudice in Japanese culture is no reason to suppress these maps.
- whacked_new 17y ago
  Not a reason, but, is the reason. Unspoken, but commonly understood, paradox.
- nunb 17y ago
  >Two weeks later, after the public comments and at least one reporter contacted Google, the old Japanese maps were suddenly changed, wiped clean of any references to the buraku villages. What else was Google supposed to do? They don't want to get involved in these crazy cultural wars. They just make information available: it's the culture which attaches weird connotations to it. >There was no note made of the changes, and they were seen by some as an attempt to quietly dodge the issue. Circular. Who are the unnamed "some"? >"This is like saying those people didn't exist. There are people for whom this is their hometown, who are still living there now," said Takashi Uchino from the Buraku Liberation League headquarters in Tokyo. Bizarre. If Google Earth did not exist, would these people cease to exist? >The League also sent a letter to Google, a copy of which was provided to The Associated Press. It wants a meeting to discuss its knowledge of the buraku issue and position on the use of its services for discrimination. Google has no knowledge of the buraku issue, doesn't care like you idiots do, and are in a much saner headspace than the lot of you. Quoting ekiru: The information about discrimination against descendants of burakumin in Japan does somewhat justify their oversensitivity, but prejudice in Japanese culture is no reason to suppress these maps. -- right, while they are totally unable to actually fix ongoing prejudice, and can do nothing in the face of large well-known companies following the same discriminatory policy, they target the one company that probably truly does not discriminate based on their pet issue.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
jwvgoethe 17y ago
simply displaying a historical document is not prejudice; what this is instead is just another indication that the japanese are incapable of coming to terms with their past and that their supposedly modern society continues to harbor a primitive mentality that would be considered distasteful and shocking in a westerner.
- holaamigos 17y ago
  But the problem is that this is not purely a historical document, it is an ongoing rights issue. By publishing these maps on top of modern maps, Google is facilitating the racism against these people.
  - jwvgoethe 17y ago
    respectfully, I posit that the right to information outweighs the potential negatives for which it may be used. If we were to allow what you suggest(cultural sensitivities) to be a legitimate basis for the suppression of knowledge, then clearly we should begin stoking the fires for our book burnings.
    - eli 17y ago
      I think you're missing the point. As was indicated in the article, these maps were already available on the web. And presumably you could find them on, well, google. This is not a censorship issue. This is about being sensitive to the outcome of your actions. Information wants to be free, sure, but some information is hurtful. And as a publisher you have a duty to at least take that into account. Perhaps this means not adding documents with hurtful slurs in them to Google Maps (especially in a format that can easily be used to aid further discrimination). Or, perhaps a better solution is ADDING information and context to these maps. After all, the remedy to bad speech is more speech. Obviously Google should have the right to post the maps and line them up with modern-day Japan with no further context, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
      - mattmcknight 17y ago
jobeirne 17y ago
Is this some sort of long-winded joke?
gojomo 17y ago
The layers just need a localized disclaimer: "For the satisfying of history curious only. Not to be used for the other purpose. (Prejudicing.)"
- eli 17y ago
  So you're the guy who buys the Grateful Dead 420 Bong and only uses it for tobacco. :)
pavlov 17y ago
In 14th century Venice, Jews were only permitted to live in an area of the city known as Ghetto. The word has since acquired many more layers of unpleasant antisemitic connotations, yet Ghetto is marked on tourist maps of Venice today. Maybe Tokyo will eventually become as open about its history -- but before that can happen, quite a few people will have to stop thinking about others by 17th century Edo period standards, it seems.
staunch 17y ago
Well now I really want to see the uncensored maps. Anyone got a link?

41 points by juanpablo 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

soundsop 17y ago

About the Japan's buraku: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=436453 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=436453

ekiru 17y ago

The bizarre thing about the complaints about the maps is that Matsuoka initially criticized Google for displaying the maps and even complained to the Justice Minister about them, but when the references to burakumin communities about which he complained were removed, a representative of the organization of which he is secretary-general asserted that removing them was an act of prejudice. It seems as though there is nothing Google can do regarding these maps besides not making them available. In a situation in which the only option that would not be considered prejudiced is to not provide useful information, the complainers are probably being oversensitive. The information about discrimination against descendants of burakumin in Japan does somewhat justify their oversensitivity, but prejudice in Japanese culture is no reason to suppress these maps.

whacked_new 17y ago
Not a reason, but, is the reason. Unspoken, but commonly understood, paradox.
nunb 17y ago
>Two weeks later, after the public comments and at least one reporter contacted Google, the old Japanese maps were suddenly changed, wiped clean of any references to the buraku villages. What else was Google supposed to do? They don't want to get involved in these crazy cultural wars. They just make information available: it's the culture which attaches weird connotations to it. >There was no note made of the changes, and they were seen by some as an attempt to quietly dodge the issue. Circular. Who are the unnamed "some"? >"This is like saying those people didn't exist. There are people for whom this is their hometown, who are still living there now," said Takashi Uchino from the Buraku Liberation League headquarters in Tokyo. Bizarre. If Google Earth did not exist, would these people cease to exist? >The League also sent a letter to Google, a copy of which was provided to The Associated Press. It wants a meeting to discuss its knowledge of the buraku issue and position on the use of its services for discrimination. Google has no knowledge of the buraku issue, doesn't care like you idiots do, and are in a much saner headspace than the lot of you. Quoting ekiru: The information about discrimination against descendants of burakumin in Japan does somewhat justify their oversensitivity, but prejudice in Japanese culture is no reason to suppress these maps. -- right, while they are totally unable to actually fix ongoing prejudice, and can do nothing in the face of large well-known companies following the same discriminatory policy, they target the one company that probably truly does not discriminate based on their pet issue.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

jwvgoethe 17y ago

simply displaying a historical document is not prejudice; what this is instead is just another indication that the japanese are incapable of coming to terms with their past and that their supposedly modern society continues to harbor a primitive mentality that would be considered distasteful and shocking in a westerner.

holaamigos 17y ago
But the problem is that this is not purely a historical document, it is an ongoing rights issue. By publishing these maps on top of modern maps, Google is facilitating the racism against these people.
- jwvgoethe 17y ago
  respectfully, I posit that the right to information outweighs the potential negatives for which it may be used. If we were to allow what you suggest(cultural sensitivities) to be a legitimate basis for the suppression of knowledge, then clearly we should begin stoking the fires for our book burnings.
  - eli 17y ago
    I think you're missing the point. As was indicated in the article, these maps were already available on the web. And presumably you could find them on, well, google. This is not a censorship issue. This is about being sensitive to the outcome of your actions. Information wants to be free, sure, but some information is hurtful. And as a publisher you have a duty to at least take that into account. Perhaps this means not adding documents with hurtful slurs in them to Google Maps (especially in a format that can easily be used to aid further discrimination). Or, perhaps a better solution is ADDING information and context to these maps. After all, the remedy to bad speech is more speech. Obviously Google should have the right to post the maps and line them up with modern-day Japan with no further context, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
    - mattmcknight 17y ago

jobeirne 17y ago

Is this some sort of long-winded joke?

gojomo 17y ago

The layers just need a localized disclaimer: "For the satisfying of history curious only. Not to be used for the other purpose. (Prejudicing.)"

eli 17y ago
So you're the guy who buys the Grateful Dead 420 Bong and only uses it for tobacco. :)

pavlov 17y ago

In 14th century Venice, Jews were only permitted to live in an area of the city known as Ghetto. The word has since acquired many more layers of unpleasant antisemitic connotations, yet Ghetto is marked on tourist maps of Venice today. Maybe Tokyo will eventually become as open about its history -- but before that can happen, quite a few people will have to stop thinking about others by 17th century Edo period standards, it seems.

staunch 17y ago

Well now I really want to see the uncensored maps. Anyone got a link?