4 ms·

Is your hypothesis falsifiable? In other words, is there anything Google could do or say to convince you that they are not, in fact, in cahoots with the NSA?

ekianjo 13y ago
They could release all details regarding what the NSA asked of them, for starters, and what they do to ensure the NSA has no way to get data from Google in one way or another. And participate in stopwatching.us. Why no support there?
- jpatokal 13y ago
  You are aware that Google is currently suing FISA for the right to release that information, yes? http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/18/technology/security/google-nsa-first-amendment/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/18/technology/security/google-n...
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Yes, and it seems more like a PR coup than anything else, seriously. For a company that has as much resources as Google, this is far from being significant.
- nl 13y ago
  They aren't allowed to release the details of what the NSA asked. It's Catch 22 for them.
- chaz 13y ago
  stopwatching.us's letter to Congress is based on the premise that the Guardian and WashPo articles are true. Of course, Google and others are swearing that it's false. So why would Google want to sign that letter? This also assumes that a letter like this does any good. I would think that Google actually filing a legal challenge with FISA is going to be more effective.
mindcrime 13y ago
is there anything Google could do or say to convince you that they are not, in fact, in cahoots with the NSA? First of all, I don't see it as a binary thing, where I'm 100% convinced they are or 100% convinced they aren't. It's more like, "what's the probability that they are?" That said, they could lower my estimate of the probability that they are (in cahoots with the NSA), although perhaps not lower it to zero. But nothing they are likely to actually do. For example, agreeing to an extensive audit of all of their internal systems, by a 3rd party organization which gets full access to everything inside Google for some period of time, including looking at source code. If somebody did that, and came back and said they found no signs of any kind of NSA tie-in, I'd be somewhat more convinced. But, that's obviously not realistic and I won't be holding my breath for it to happen. :-)
- mcbutterbunz 13y ago
  Let me get this straight... You would trust Google MORE if they let a third party company come in and have full access to EVERYTHING? Source code and data? And whose to say that company isn't associated with the NSA or the Chinese government?
  - jka 13y ago
    This is what auditors exist for - to bolster trust - they get to ask the difficult questions, look at the systems and processes in place, and assess the behaviour of a company in order to reassure external parties (often investors). They do often genuinely have access to data and code, even if it is perhaps slightly rarer for them to bring the skills to truly interrogate them. The reliability of an auditor is based on their perceived level of trust in the community. As an investor, you want to be assured that your investment is worthwhile, so you want to work with an auditor that is thorough and highly confidential. If an auditor can be proven to have intentionally misled in the past, or to have worked with shady agencies / outside parties, that would be a very black mark against them and future business, so it should, ideally, not be in their best interests. Note that this does not except the behaviour of humans in practice, where short term gains of a person might not be aligned with their parent organization (c.f. banking).
  - 13y ago
samstave 13y ago
Having seen first hand the number of ex CIA/SS/NSA/MIL emps there are at FB, GOOG would have to prove that they did not have the same level of infestation.... Do they have a DC policy Office? FB does... What is the nature of the policy office GOOG has... Can it be verified that its not just a YESSIR system? Probably not...
daywalker2 13y ago
Too little, too late, for Google. If they really cared, they would have spoken up before the leaks.
dlitz 13y ago
Making it not a felony to talk about it might help.

ekianjo 13y ago

They could release all details regarding what the NSA asked of them, for starters, and what they do to ensure the NSA has no way to get data from Google in one way or another. And participate in stopwatching.us. Why no support there?

jpatokal 13y ago
You are aware that Google is currently suing FISA for the right to release that information, yes? http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/18/technology/security/google-nsa-first-amendment/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/18/technology/security/google-n...
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Yes, and it seems more like a PR coup than anything else, seriously. For a company that has as much resources as Google, this is far from being significant.
nl 13y ago
They aren't allowed to release the details of what the NSA asked. It's Catch 22 for them.
chaz 13y ago
stopwatching.us's letter to Congress is based on the premise that the Guardian and WashPo articles are true. Of course, Google and others are swearing that it's false. So why would Google want to sign that letter? This also assumes that a letter like this does any good. I would think that Google actually filing a legal challenge with FISA is going to be more effective.

mindcrime 13y ago

is there anything Google could do or say to convince you that they are not, in fact, in cahoots with the NSA? First of all, I don't see it as a binary thing, where I'm 100% convinced they are or 100% convinced they aren't. It's more like, "what's the probability that they are?" That said, they could lower my estimate of the probability that they are (in cahoots with the NSA), although perhaps not lower it to zero. But nothing they are likely to actually do. For example, agreeing to an extensive audit of all of their internal systems, by a 3rd party organization which gets full access to everything inside Google for some period of time, including looking at source code. If somebody did that, and came back and said they found no signs of any kind of NSA tie-in, I'd be somewhat more convinced. But, that's obviously not realistic and I won't be holding my breath for it to happen. :-)

mcbutterbunz 13y ago
Let me get this straight... You would trust Google MORE if they let a third party company come in and have full access to EVERYTHING? Source code and data? And whose to say that company isn't associated with the NSA or the Chinese government?
- jka 13y ago
  This is what auditors exist for - to bolster trust - they get to ask the difficult questions, look at the systems and processes in place, and assess the behaviour of a company in order to reassure external parties (often investors). They do often genuinely have access to data and code, even if it is perhaps slightly rarer for them to bring the skills to truly interrogate them. The reliability of an auditor is based on their perceived level of trust in the community. As an investor, you want to be assured that your investment is worthwhile, so you want to work with an auditor that is thorough and highly confidential. If an auditor can be proven to have intentionally misled in the past, or to have worked with shady agencies / outside parties, that would be a very black mark against them and future business, so it should, ideally, not be in their best interests. Note that this does not except the behaviour of humans in practice, where short term gains of a person might not be aligned with their parent organization (c.f. banking).
- 13y ago

samstave 13y ago

Having seen first hand the number of ex CIA/SS/NSA/MIL emps there are at FB, GOOG would have to prove that they did not have the same level of infestation.... Do they have a DC policy Office? FB does... What is the nature of the policy office GOOG has... Can it be verified that its not just a YESSIR system? Probably not...

daywalker2 13y ago

Too little, too late, for Google. If they really cared, they would have spoken up before the leaks.

dlitz 13y ago

Making it not a felony to talk about it might help.