9 ms·

Google releases first beta SDK for Dart, including 20% faster analysis engine

48 points by Lightning 13y ago

timothya 13y ago
It's very exciting to see Dart reaching beta status. The project is definitely maturing, and hopefully this means that the 1.0 release will be in the next few months. The Angular team recently announced[1] that they are going to start supporting the Dart project too. This means that if you're already familiar with writing Angular code but you want a language with some better semantics, better tooling, and a standard library, this may be a good time to start checking it out. [1]: http://news.dartlang.org/2013/06/angularjs-announces-port-for-dart.html http://news.dartlang.org/2013/06/angularjs-announces-port-fo... , https://github.com/angular/angular.dart https://github.com/angular/angular.dart
alvivi 13y ago
Where is the "Works better on Google Chrome" badge?
- mbsuperstar1 13y ago
  Google Chrome has yet to implement the DartVM, I believe the OilPan memory experiment allowing for multiple languages to interact with the DOM without leaks is experimental still. Secondly, Dart compiles to efficient Javascript and works on all modern browsers.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - azakai 13y ago
    Sounds interesting, is there more information on that that I can read?
    - magicalist 13y ago
      Check out https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/blink-dev/V1vJmirHUGE https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?fromgroups#!... or just look for oilpan on blink-dev. I haven't seen anything about Dart (the big win would be eliminating the really slow DOM "GC" cycles on the webkit/blink side of things), but it would be interesting if this opened the way for easier VM integration. My understanding was that post-webkit they were tying v8 deeper into blink, though, not allowing more flexibility...
      - azakai 13y ago
        Thanks, yeah, that was my guess too (fix leaks by GCing DOM stuff, which is a nice idea), I was surprised to hear it was related to Dart somehow. I can't seem to find anything online explaining a connection between them (is it just speculation?).
        dwischusen 13y ago
        See http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=huawCRlo9H4#t=2848s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hua...
        azakai 13y ago
        Thanks!
- mythz 13y ago
  There's no Dart VM in Chrome atm. So any Dart app in Chrome has to run the same compiled JS like every other modern browser.
- spankalee 13y ago
  Right next to the "Works better on Firefox" badge for asm.js?
  - pcwalton 13y ago
    asm.js is just JavaScript. It is not remotely comparable to Dart.
    - mythz 13y ago
      Which compiles to JavaScript with Dart2JS.
      - pcwalton 13y ago
        That's correct. There is basically nothing comparable between asm.js (which is a subset of JS with a JavaScript interpreter optimized for it) and Dart (which is a language that currently compiles to JS with no special compiler optimizations in any engine that I'm aware of). When Google starts shipping the Dart VM, then it will be a different story, of course. It will still not be comparable to asm.js, because asm.js runs in all browsers without the site author having to do anything (which would not be the case if Google shipped the Dart VM, as it would then be possible, and convenient, to write pages that only worked in Chrome).
        mythz 13y ago
        Only Firefox uses a separate special interpreter (Odin Monkey) for asm.js - Chrome's asm.js improvements come from optimizing the same V8 JS pipeline. Having a separate compilation pipeline can be viewed as a disadvantage since any optimizations for speeding up asm.js doesn't improve JS performance: http://mrale.ph/blog/2013/03/28/why-asmjs-bothers-me.html http://mrale.ph/blog/2013/03/28/why-asmjs-bothers-me.html > It will still not be comparable to asm.js, because asm.js runs in all browsers without the site author having to do anything Dart web apps will continue to run in all browsers just as it runs today through Dart2JS, it even has great source maps support which lets you debug native Dart code even though it's running transpiled JS. There's nothing special the "author" would have to do, it already exists as part of the project template, e.g. if the browser has a Dart VM it will run the Dart code natively, otherwise it will run the Dart2JS version. Since some Dart benchmarks http://www.dartlang.org/performance/ http://www.dartlang.org/performance/ show Dart2JS outperforming handwritten JS in V8 even with the overhead of different semantics, I'm assuming that Dart2JS compiles to efficient JS that developers wouldn't write. > because asm.js runs in all browsers runs is a technically interesting term, there are some asm.js demos that you would not attempt to run without asm.js specific optimizations (i.e. not Firefox) since it would be unusably slow. This is visible in the Epic Citadel http://www.unrealengine.com/html5/ http://www.unrealengine.com/html5/ flagship asm.js demo where it needs a Firefox Nightly release to run. The demo doesn't let you run it in IE10 and whilst it lets you try run it in the latest Chrome, but it crashes. Even Firefox ended up reverting a correction fix (deviating from their JS SpiderMonkey VM) in OdinMonkey because it would invalidate its type checker and cause this demo to run with their normal (i.e. unoptimized asm.js) JS engine: https://plus.google.com/111090511249453178320/posts/cr4jTsfxVg8 https://plus.google.com/111090511249453178320/posts/cr4jTsfx... So whilst it can in theory technically still run since its "just JavaScript", it can currently be either a broken, or unusable experience if you don't use Firefox.
embolism 13y ago
Finally google will have a proprietary language to compete on a level playing field with Apple without having to worry about web standards.
- mythz 13y ago
  By "proprietary language" do you mean fully open sourced with a liberal patent covenant and a well documented hosting API that as a goal encourages its adoption and contributions, that's being developed in the open and is in the process of being standardized once released?
  - embolism 13y ago
    Yes, because none of that will have any effect on Google's control over what runtime goes into Chrome and their ability to make unilateral decisions about the language's future. It's fully owned and controlled by Google.
    - spankalee 13y ago
      But standardization, a strong goal of the project founders, will.
      - embolism 13y ago
        If Google submits Dart to an independent standards body that has a governance model that includes other interested parties e.g. Mozilla, Apple, W3C, and doesn't make Google king, and if Google agrees to adhere to the standard and not just rush ahead with a de-facto standard reference implementation that people write anyway to because it's in Chrome, and if other browsers widely integrate Dart, then it would no longer be proprietary. Until these things are achieved then it is absolutely proprietary and claims to the contrary are based on a PR position about a possible future that could easily be de-prioritized or never come about. I could easily see developers jump on board this 'soon to be standardized' language, only to see an announcement that 'Other vendors didn't join up, so we have been forced to go it alone' from Google.
RyanZAG 13y ago
The idea of Dart is great - but the 'Google' brand attached to it is very worrying. Dart feels like exactly the type of service that Google will just drop in the future if it doesn't get popular quickly enough, and with only Google supporting it, that makes any code written it in a huge risk. Google's track record is the single clear problem facing Dart at present. Personally, I've been holding off on Dart for exactly that reason. I have no idea how Google could get around that - maybe a written promise to provide support for Dart for X years? EDIT: Another similar worry: if Dart really does take off, will Google not just drop support for other browsers besides Chrome from stock Dart?
- DonnyV 13y ago
  This is exactly why I'm not touching it. At least with GO they are using it in all there servers, so you know they will be supporting it for a while.
  - spankalee 13y ago
    Two corrections: 1) We are not using Go in all of our servers. Java, C++, and Python are very prominent. Go is just getting started internally. 2) Dart is being used internally, we won't be dropping it.
    - cpeterso 13y ago
      Can you say which internal projects are using Dart at Google? Were they new systems, rewrites, or evolutions of existing JS systems?
      - freshman19 13y ago
        They got some patches from the finance department and Google were really insistent on adding big integers to JS so it looks like they're using it for currency. Woo... exciting.
    - alvivi 13y ago
      Dart is an unilateral project aiming to: "ultimate goal is to replace JavaScript", "rescue browsers from JavaScript" or "Google preps Dart to challenge JavaScript". Being open source here, is not good enough.
mark_l_watson 13y ago
I have played around with Dart - very nice to use the same language on client and server. I have a small client server example: http://blog.markwatson.com/2013/05/complete-but-small-dart-client-server-example/ http://blog.markwatson.com/2013/05/complete-but-small-dart-c... I stopped playing with Dart when I "discovered" Meteor recently. That said, the Dart language is very nice and I might still use it on a real project.
vyrotek 13y ago
Barely on topic. Here's a recently posted video on a Dart alternative called TypeScript. http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Anders-Hejlsberg-Steve-Lucco-and-Luke-Hoban-Inside-TypeScript-09 http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Anders-Hejlsberg-Stev...

48 points by Lightning 13y ago

It's very exciting to see Dart reaching beta status. The project is definitely maturing, and hopefully this means that the 1.0 release will be in the next few months. The Angular team recently announced[1] that they are going to start supporting the Dart project too. This means that if you're already familiar with writing Angular code but you want a language with some better semantics, better tooling, and a standard library, this may be a good time to start checking it out. [1]: http://news.dartlang.org/2013/06/angularjs-announces-port-for-dart.html http://news.dartlang.org/2013/06/angularjs-announces-port-fo... , https://github.com/angular/angular.dart https://github.com/angular/angular.dart

alvivi 13y ago

Where is the "Works better on Google Chrome" badge?

mbsuperstar1 13y ago
Google Chrome has yet to implement the DartVM, I believe the OilPan memory experiment allowing for multiple languages to interact with the DOM without leaks is experimental still. Secondly, Dart compiles to efficient Javascript and works on all modern browsers.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- azakai 13y ago
  Sounds interesting, is there more information on that that I can read?
  - magicalist 13y ago
    Check out https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/blink-dev/V1vJmirHUGE https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?fromgroups#!... or just look for oilpan on blink-dev. I haven't seen anything about Dart (the big win would be eliminating the really slow DOM "GC" cycles on the webkit/blink side of things), but it would be interesting if this opened the way for easier VM integration. My understanding was that post-webkit they were tying v8 deeper into blink, though, not allowing more flexibility...
    - azakai 13y ago
      Thanks, yeah, that was my guess too (fix leaks by GCing DOM stuff, which is a nice idea), I was surprised to hear it was related to Dart somehow. I can't seem to find anything online explaining a connection between them (is it just speculation?).
      - dwischusen 13y ago
        See http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=huawCRlo9H4#t=2848s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hua...
        azakai 13y ago
        Thanks!
mythz 13y ago
There's no Dart VM in Chrome atm. So any Dart app in Chrome has to run the same compiled JS like every other modern browser.
spankalee 13y ago
Right next to the "Works better on Firefox" badge for asm.js?
- pcwalton 13y ago
  asm.js is just JavaScript. It is not remotely comparable to Dart.
  - mythz 13y ago
    Which compiles to JavaScript with Dart2JS.
    - pcwalton 13y ago
      That's correct. There is basically nothing comparable between asm.js (which is a subset of JS with a JavaScript interpreter optimized for it) and Dart (which is a language that currently compiles to JS with no special compiler optimizations in any engine that I'm aware of). When Google starts shipping the Dart VM, then it will be a different story, of course. It will still not be comparable to asm.js, because asm.js runs in all browsers without the site author having to do anything (which would not be the case if Google shipped the Dart VM, as it would then be possible, and convenient, to write pages that only worked in Chrome).
      - mythz 13y ago
        Only Firefox uses a separate special interpreter (Odin Monkey) for asm.js - Chrome's asm.js improvements come from optimizing the same V8 JS pipeline. Having a separate compilation pipeline can be viewed as a disadvantage since any optimizations for speeding up asm.js doesn't improve JS performance: http://mrale.ph/blog/2013/03/28/why-asmjs-bothers-me.html http://mrale.ph/blog/2013/03/28/why-asmjs-bothers-me.html > It will still not be comparable to asm.js, because asm.js runs in all browsers without the site author having to do anything Dart web apps will continue to run in all browsers just as it runs today through Dart2JS, it even has great source maps support which lets you debug native Dart code even though it's running transpiled JS. There's nothing special the "author" would have to do, it already exists as part of the project template, e.g. if the browser has a Dart VM it will run the Dart code natively, otherwise it will run the Dart2JS version. Since some Dart benchmarks http://www.dartlang.org/performance/ http://www.dartlang.org/performance/ show Dart2JS outperforming handwritten JS in V8 even with the overhead of different semantics, I'm assuming that Dart2JS compiles to efficient JS that developers wouldn't write. > because asm.js runs in all browsers runs is a technically interesting term, there are some asm.js demos that you would not attempt to run without asm.js specific optimizations (i.e. not Firefox) since it would be unusably slow. This is visible in the Epic Citadel http://www.unrealengine.com/html5/ http://www.unrealengine.com/html5/ flagship asm.js demo where it needs a Firefox Nightly release to run. The demo doesn't let you run it in IE10 and whilst it lets you try run it in the latest Chrome, but it crashes. Even Firefox ended up reverting a correction fix (deviating from their JS SpiderMonkey VM) in OdinMonkey because it would invalidate its type checker and cause this demo to run with their normal (i.e. unoptimized asm.js) JS engine: https://plus.google.com/111090511249453178320/posts/cr4jTsfxVg8 https://plus.google.com/111090511249453178320/posts/cr4jTsfx... So whilst it can in theory technically still run since its "just JavaScript", it can currently be either a broken, or unusable experience if you don't use Firefox.

embolism 13y ago

Finally google will have a proprietary language to compete on a level playing field with Apple without having to worry about web standards.

mythz 13y ago
By "proprietary language" do you mean fully open sourced with a liberal patent covenant and a well documented hosting API that as a goal encourages its adoption and contributions, that's being developed in the open and is in the process of being standardized once released?
- embolism 13y ago
  Yes, because none of that will have any effect on Google's control over what runtime goes into Chrome and their ability to make unilateral decisions about the language's future. It's fully owned and controlled by Google.
  - spankalee 13y ago
    But standardization, a strong goal of the project founders, will.
    - embolism 13y ago
      If Google submits Dart to an independent standards body that has a governance model that includes other interested parties e.g. Mozilla, Apple, W3C, and doesn't make Google king, and if Google agrees to adhere to the standard and not just rush ahead with a de-facto standard reference implementation that people write anyway to because it's in Chrome, and if other browsers widely integrate Dart, then it would no longer be proprietary. Until these things are achieved then it is absolutely proprietary and claims to the contrary are based on a PR position about a possible future that could easily be de-prioritized or never come about. I could easily see developers jump on board this 'soon to be standardized' language, only to see an announcement that 'Other vendors didn't join up, so we have been forced to go it alone' from Google.

RyanZAG 13y ago

The idea of Dart is great - but the 'Google' brand attached to it is very worrying. Dart feels like exactly the type of service that Google will just drop in the future if it doesn't get popular quickly enough, and with only Google supporting it, that makes any code written it in a huge risk. Google's track record is the single clear problem facing Dart at present. Personally, I've been holding off on Dart for exactly that reason. I have no idea how Google could get around that - maybe a written promise to provide support for Dart for X years? EDIT: Another similar worry: if Dart really does take off, will Google not just drop support for other browsers besides Chrome from stock Dart?

DonnyV 13y ago
This is exactly why I'm not touching it. At least with GO they are using it in all there servers, so you know they will be supporting it for a while.
- spankalee 13y ago
  Two corrections: 1) We are not using Go in all of our servers. Java, C++, and Python are very prominent. Go is just getting started internally. 2) Dart is being used internally, we won't be dropping it.
  - cpeterso 13y ago
    Can you say which internal projects are using Dart at Google? Were they new systems, rewrites, or evolutions of existing JS systems?
    - freshman19 13y ago
      They got some patches from the finance department and Google were really insistent on adding big integers to JS so it looks like they're using it for currency. Woo... exciting.
  - alvivi 13y ago
    Dart is an unilateral project aiming to: "ultimate goal is to replace JavaScript", "rescue browsers from JavaScript" or "Google preps Dart to challenge JavaScript". Being open source here, is not good enough.

mark_l_watson 13y ago

I have played around with Dart - very nice to use the same language on client and server. I have a small client server example: http://blog.markwatson.com/2013/05/complete-but-small-dart-client-server-example/ http://blog.markwatson.com/2013/05/complete-but-small-dart-c... I stopped playing with Dart when I "discovered" Meteor recently. That said, the Dart language is very nice and I might still use it on a real project.

vyrotek 13y ago

Barely on topic. Here's a recently posted video on a Dart alternative called TypeScript. http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Anders-Hejlsberg-Steve-Lucco-and-Luke-Hoban-Inside-TypeScript-09 http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Anders-Hejlsberg-Stev...