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The article specifically mentions incarcerations skyrocketing as a result of the drug war. Throwing petty dealers in prison is not an effective use of taxpayer

The article specifically mentions incarcerations skyrocketing as a result of the drug war. Throwing petty dealers in prison is not an effective use of taxpayer dollars.

jiggy2011 13y ago
Bear in mind that drug dealers are not known to be the most civic minded people and likely commit other offenses. Drug dealing is just what they got busted for. I've known areas of my town get dramatically safer after some big drug busts. The drug trade has significant externalities.
- deelowe 13y ago
  If it wasn't illegal, there would be no illegal drug trade. Most drug related offenses are during nonviolent events. Drugs are popular in low income areas which is also where there's a lot of other crime. Decriminalizing drugs won't change this, but it will allow the system (legislators, police, & judges) to focus on the crimes that do harm society. Take that to it's logicial conclusion and it's not hard to arrive at the decision that the war on drugs is bad for society.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    But what do these drug dealers turn their attentions to? Most of them don't have the education to make similar quantities of money in a 'straight' industry.
    - deelowe 13y ago
      Nothing initially. This is the mess we got ourselves into. It will take time to sort itself out. Though perpetuating the problem isn't the solution.
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        Most likely they switch to other modes of crime to keep up their lifestyle.
        sethrin 13y ago
        I've responded in more detail elsewhere, but this claim has no basis in reality. This is an extraordinary claim and needs a substantial amount of evidence to support it.
        deelowe 13y ago
        OK Might as well keep stupid laws in place then? What's your point? Should we also outlaw fast food b/c more low income people eat it and we all know lower income people commit more crimes? I got it! We'll outlaw poverty!
    - sethrin 13y ago
      Statistically, and in my experience, drug dealing is not a violent crime. They're not going to start knocking over convenience stores. Some of them might scrape together enough capital to start a retail store. Prices and profits are going to take a long time to fall, so most of them will just keep doing what they're doing, except with a little less risk, and they'll be able to keep their cash in a bank, and theoretically pay taxes on it. If things reach the point where it's not really profitable any more, then those people will have to get a real job. The idea that they will turn to some other criminal pursuit...yeesh. It's like you've never even met any dealers. Imagine that tomorrow, the government made your job illegal. Would you be like, "Well, that does it. I guess I'd better start brushing up on my raping, murdering, and insider trading," or would you maybe not go all-out breaking whatever laws you could? It may shock you to realize that because the hypothetical dealer is breaking the law in one respect, he is best served by not breaking the law in any other respect, in order to not draw attention to himself. Lastly, we don't have to speculate what will happen, there are countries which have decriminalized drug use -- US states too. Marijuana has been decriminalized in Alaska for almost 40 years, although no one seems to know this. The sky has stubbornly refused to fall.
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        Perhaps there is the odd hippie selling homegrown ganja out of his greenhouse who has never been in a fight in his life, but drug gangs control a massive amount of the trade from production to distribution and are certainly happy to use violence if required. Violence may not be required however in cases where everyone is already scared witless of them. Drug crime and other crime go hand in hand. If you legalize drugs completely , then serious businesses run by people with MBAs , Venture capital, marketing teams, legal departments etc come into the game. Rather than street level violence, battles are not fought in patent courts and with government lobbying. Those who are currently dealing drugs don't know how to play this game and will lose. They can't go and get a straight job because they have no provable work history, probably a criminal record and few contacts outside of the "underworld". They also have become accustomed to a lifestyle of nice cars and (possibly multiple) high maintenance girlfriends, so McDonalds isn't going to cut it. So they will look for other lucrative opportunities where the MBAs don't want to compete with them (because it is illegal).
- alexmat 13y ago
  Those externalities are themselves a consequence of the War on Drugs, not the drug dealer. I have lots of drug dealers in my state who run great businesses and contribute to the local economy because the drugs they deal are now legal.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Those things are already against the law. Enforce those laws instead.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    Drugs might be easier to arrest people for. That doesn't justify the war on drugs, but it does raise the possibility of having more people who should be in jail not being in jail.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      Zealous prosecution of drug crimes also raises the possibility of having more people in jail who aren't involved in any other criminal activity.
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        I would wager most (or at least a very large %) people involved in drug crime on the supply end, or on the demand end of harder drugs commit other offences or are likely to in future.
        deelowe 13y ago
        But most of the people in jail aren't on the supply end. That's the point.
- mindslight 13y ago
  Running their own competing transaction enforcement system (as they're unable to use the one provided by the incumbent force monopoly) is the thing which has significant externalities.

The article specifically mentions incarcerations skyrocketing as a result of the drug war. Throwing petty dealers in prison is not an effective use of taxpayer dollars.

jiggy2011 13y ago

Bear in mind that drug dealers are not known to be the most civic minded people and likely commit other offenses. Drug dealing is just what they got busted for. I've known areas of my town get dramatically safer after some big drug busts. The drug trade has significant externalities.

deelowe 13y ago
If it wasn't illegal, there would be no illegal drug trade. Most drug related offenses are during nonviolent events. Drugs are popular in low income areas which is also where there's a lot of other crime. Decriminalizing drugs won't change this, but it will allow the system (legislators, police, & judges) to focus on the crimes that do harm society. Take that to it's logicial conclusion and it's not hard to arrive at the decision that the war on drugs is bad for society.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  But what do these drug dealers turn their attentions to? Most of them don't have the education to make similar quantities of money in a 'straight' industry.
  - deelowe 13y ago
    Nothing initially. This is the mess we got ourselves into. It will take time to sort itself out. Though perpetuating the problem isn't the solution.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      Most likely they switch to other modes of crime to keep up their lifestyle.
      - sethrin 13y ago
        I've responded in more detail elsewhere, but this claim has no basis in reality. This is an extraordinary claim and needs a substantial amount of evidence to support it.
      - deelowe 13y ago
        OK Might as well keep stupid laws in place then? What's your point? Should we also outlaw fast food b/c more low income people eat it and we all know lower income people commit more crimes? I got it! We'll outlaw poverty!
  - sethrin 13y ago
    Statistically, and in my experience, drug dealing is not a violent crime. They're not going to start knocking over convenience stores. Some of them might scrape together enough capital to start a retail store. Prices and profits are going to take a long time to fall, so most of them will just keep doing what they're doing, except with a little less risk, and they'll be able to keep their cash in a bank, and theoretically pay taxes on it. If things reach the point where it's not really profitable any more, then those people will have to get a real job. The idea that they will turn to some other criminal pursuit...yeesh. It's like you've never even met any dealers. Imagine that tomorrow, the government made your job illegal. Would you be like, "Well, that does it. I guess I'd better start brushing up on my raping, murdering, and insider trading," or would you maybe not go all-out breaking whatever laws you could? It may shock you to realize that because the hypothetical dealer is breaking the law in one respect, he is best served by not breaking the law in any other respect, in order to not draw attention to himself. Lastly, we don't have to speculate what will happen, there are countries which have decriminalized drug use -- US states too. Marijuana has been decriminalized in Alaska for almost 40 years, although no one seems to know this. The sky has stubbornly refused to fall.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      Perhaps there is the odd hippie selling homegrown ganja out of his greenhouse who has never been in a fight in his life, but drug gangs control a massive amount of the trade from production to distribution and are certainly happy to use violence if required. Violence may not be required however in cases where everyone is already scared witless of them. Drug crime and other crime go hand in hand. If you legalize drugs completely , then serious businesses run by people with MBAs , Venture capital, marketing teams, legal departments etc come into the game. Rather than street level violence, battles are not fought in patent courts and with government lobbying. Those who are currently dealing drugs don't know how to play this game and will lose. They can't go and get a straight job because they have no provable work history, probably a criminal record and few contacts outside of the "underworld". They also have become accustomed to a lifestyle of nice cars and (possibly multiple) high maintenance girlfriends, so McDonalds isn't going to cut it. So they will look for other lucrative opportunities where the MBAs don't want to compete with them (because it is illegal).
alexmat 13y ago
Those externalities are themselves a consequence of the War on Drugs, not the drug dealer. I have lots of drug dealers in my state who run great businesses and contribute to the local economy because the drugs they deal are now legal.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Those things are already against the law. Enforce those laws instead.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Drugs might be easier to arrest people for. That doesn't justify the war on drugs, but it does raise the possibility of having more people who should be in jail not being in jail.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Zealous prosecution of drug crimes also raises the possibility of having more people in jail who aren't involved in any other criminal activity.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      I would wager most (or at least a very large %) people involved in drug crime on the supply end, or on the demand end of harder drugs commit other offences or are likely to in future.
      - deelowe 13y ago
        But most of the people in jail aren't on the supply end. That's the point.
mindslight 13y ago
Running their own competing transaction enforcement system (as they're unable to use the one provided by the incumbent force monopoly) is the thing which has significant externalities.