5 ms·

This article has a lot of numbers but it doesn't seem to answer 2 questions which are far more important: 1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of

This article has a lot of numbers but it doesn't seem to answer 2 questions which are far more important: 1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. 2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options? Last time on HN I asked this and the answer was, "support NORML". I then went and tried to find other organizations looking to make sweeping changes. I was not successful. The problem with NORML is their image. No serious person in business can support an organization that uses a POT leaf as their symbol and seems to be primarily an organization for hippies to sit around and talk about the government. I realize that their image may not be their reality, but I can't write a company matched check to them without people wondering "what I'm smoking". So... The question I am asking is, what can I do about one of the largest human rights atrocities ever committed by the United States, my country? Its obvious that at the very least we can move a lot of people to different types of facilities. We can probably do a lot more than that, possibly reversing 45 years of discriminatory drug laws and possibly taking increased societal risks to reduce the amount of years the average American spends in prison. I'm somewhat distraught that this problem exists but I haven't come up with a solution yet. Anyone out there have any ideas on who I can support or what can be done? [ADDED] The Norml image problem is probably bad on the west coast, but is a deal breaker on the east coast.

pstuart 13y ago
And what benefit do we get from locking up any drug user? Legal or not? Are we helping the user or society like this? Hippies? Really? The entire Drug War is a failure and should be offensive to anybody who treasures civil liberties. If you passively accept the status quo then YOU are the problem, because this madness only continues because of sanctimonious people like YOU.
- wtvanhest 13y ago
  The drug war is offensive and I am clearly stating that I no longer want to passively accept the status quo. I am also stating that NORML's brand is ineffective and I am looking for a brand I can donate to and possibly volunteer with without a negative impact to my career. Until NORML changes their entire brand, their effectiveness will be limited. They do rally hippies which is a positive, but they won't get serious business people who cannot afford reputation risk no matter the cause. If the people in NORML were serious, they would drop the pot leaf and start talking about civil liberties over "legalization".
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    I think this is a great response and I hope more people pay attention to it. What many of us think of as a triviality is actually an issue that can harm a person's career, and thus limit support from those people. Whether the issue is real or not (and I have no doubt that it is), the mere perception is enough to prevent some people from supporting a worthy cause.
  - pstuart 13y ago
    The fact that you see a cannabis leaf and think "hippy" says way more about you then NORML. They're advocating for freedom to consume the plant after all, using that highly identifiable leaf makes it very clear what they are supporting. > reputation risk Do you really think donating to NORML could damage your career? Buffer it with donations to EFF,ACLU,etc. and it's unimpeachable political speech.
    - wtvanhest 13y ago
      It is clear that you are not reading what I am writing or are applying huge biases which do not allow you to fully understand my point. My point is that I don't get the chance to argue why I made a donation to NORML if my name just appears on a company wide list. People see it, they make assumptions. NORML's failure to see how their branding is weak for large donor support is a huge problem for that organization succeeding in its goal. This can be applied to as low as conversation among friends or as high as a politician who must choose whether to A) Support individual freedom and civil liberties or B) support drug addicts and criminal, burn out hippies in a drug induced free for all. If you cannot see how NORML's image aligns anyone who supports it with the later, you should really take a step back and ask yourself the following: Do you put your affiliation with that on a resume? What are the impacts of that? If you are in tech on the west coast, you may get away with it. If you are in a serious business on the east coast, you will have trouble getting hired. Change from NORML to a hypothetical organization called: "Organization For the Reduction of Human Rights Violations on US Soil." Now instead of your resume getting thrown away, you get to talk about how people are dying in prison who should instead be productive members of society. The point is, I don't care about NORML, I care about trying to figure out a way to get this country out of this mess and I believe that NORML is branded incorrectly to achieve that goal.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. IMO, Absolutely not. >2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options? Answer jury summonses. Learn about jury nullification. Pay attention to local elections. > I then went and tried to find other organizations looking to make sweeping changes. I was not successful. The Innocence Project of Texas http://www.ipoftexas.org/ http://www.ipoftexas.org/ Law Enforcement Against Prohibition http://www.leap.cc/ http://www.leap.cc/
- Shivetya 13y ago
  Jury Nullification seems to get bandied about a lot on tech sites. Yet in practice it is not as easy as one suspects, nor does it happen with any real frequency. It is common that defense attorneys are not allowed to instruct a jury to seek nullification, juries are regularly advised to apply the law in a case, and then there are courts which will screen out prospective jurors if they voice the opinion they don't agree with the law. Then to top it off, you have to get all members of the jury to agree to it. With that you run up against morals and predispositions of the various jurors. It would have to be a pretty damn extreme law, one unfavorable with the public as a whole, to get caught up by a nullification and you can be the authorities would do their best to stack the deck
  - tunesmith 13y ago
    Why do you have to get the rest of the jury to agree with it? Isn't it sufficient to have eleven people wanting to convict based off of law, and one person voting no (and sticking to it) because of disagreeing with the law?
- wtvanhest 13y ago
  Hey, thanks for your comment about LEAP. I had heard of them in the past, but didn't consider them. That may be where I make a donation, but the issue again is that the organization is about prohibition. In an ideal world, the organization would be fighting for human rights and addressing prohibition as the lowest hanging, and first fruit to take off the tree. The Innocence Project is amazing, but does not address the widespread solution we need. A noble organization, ABSOLUTELY! As for your first comment: >1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. IMO, Absolutely not. This is the general opinion of HN, but is it the truth? I'm sure someone has addressed this opinion with honest analysis, but I don't know where it exists. Stating that "they are making a profit" is not good enough because there is more to the question than that. Thanks again for pointing to LEAP. That is definitely a better marketed organization than NORML.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
re [ADDED]: Why is it a deal breaker to share common ground with a group that some people stereotype as undesirable? I mean, prohibition of drugs is one of the main drivers of the huge prison population. NORML, the Marijuana Policy Project, and LEAP Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, are the groups that I am most aware of doing advocacy in this respect.
- wtvanhest 13y ago
  I appreciate your comment listing the groups. I will look in to LEAP. Why is it a deal breaker to share common ground with a group that some people stereotype as undesirable? I mean, prohibition of drugs is one of the main drivers of the huge prison population. On the West Coast of the US you may be able to get away with open support of NORML at a tech company, but on the East Coast it is pretty much a no go at a serious organization. If I want to make a donation and have my company match it, I can't make it to NORML without having people judge me while I am not aware of it. That is a complete deal breaker. I hope their is an organization out there working on this that is doing in the name of enhanced civil liberties. Currently, it is easy for someone to say "You are supporting a bunch of hippies?" I want it easy for me to say "I can't believe you aren't supporting basic civil liberties"!
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    The ACLU, The EFF, EPIC. It's unfortunate that people make such value judgments, but I've worked at places like that too.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
king_jester 13y ago
> 1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. Prisons in general are bad for society. Prison stays are highly deleterious to people and the communities they will return to. Non-violent crimes should certainly not result in prison time, there is no productive reason for that to happen. Property crimes (e.g. theft) are come about from how society is structured and we would be better off addressing social inequality than investing in increasing incarceration. Violent crimes may be better handled with systems that are structurally different from the current prison system. > 2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options? War on drugs must end. Social inequality with regards to poverty and homelessness need to be seriously tackled. Racism and sexism need to be addressed from a systemic aspect. Finally for those violent crimes that do require some kind of social response alternatives to the current prison system should be explored.
neon_electro 13y ago
Have you seen Marijuana Majority? http://marijuanamajority.com/ http://marijuanamajority.com/

pstuart 13y ago

And what benefit do we get from locking up any drug user? Legal or not? Are we helping the user or society like this? Hippies? Really? The entire Drug War is a failure and should be offensive to anybody who treasures civil liberties. If you passively accept the status quo then YOU are the problem, because this madness only continues because of sanctimonious people like YOU.

wtvanhest 13y ago
The drug war is offensive and I am clearly stating that I no longer want to passively accept the status quo. I am also stating that NORML's brand is ineffective and I am looking for a brand I can donate to and possibly volunteer with without a negative impact to my career. Until NORML changes their entire brand, their effectiveness will be limited. They do rally hippies which is a positive, but they won't get serious business people who cannot afford reputation risk no matter the cause. If the people in NORML were serious, they would drop the pot leaf and start talking about civil liberties over "legalization".
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  I think this is a great response and I hope more people pay attention to it. What many of us think of as a triviality is actually an issue that can harm a person's career, and thus limit support from those people. Whether the issue is real or not (and I have no doubt that it is), the mere perception is enough to prevent some people from supporting a worthy cause.
- pstuart 13y ago
  The fact that you see a cannabis leaf and think "hippy" says way more about you then NORML. They're advocating for freedom to consume the plant after all, using that highly identifiable leaf makes it very clear what they are supporting. > reputation risk Do you really think donating to NORML could damage your career? Buffer it with donations to EFF,ACLU,etc. and it's unimpeachable political speech.
  - wtvanhest 13y ago
    It is clear that you are not reading what I am writing or are applying huge biases which do not allow you to fully understand my point. My point is that I don't get the chance to argue why I made a donation to NORML if my name just appears on a company wide list. People see it, they make assumptions. NORML's failure to see how their branding is weak for large donor support is a huge problem for that organization succeeding in its goal. This can be applied to as low as conversation among friends or as high as a politician who must choose whether to A) Support individual freedom and civil liberties or B) support drug addicts and criminal, burn out hippies in a drug induced free for all. If you cannot see how NORML's image aligns anyone who supports it with the later, you should really take a step back and ask yourself the following: Do you put your affiliation with that on a resume? What are the impacts of that? If you are in tech on the west coast, you may get away with it. If you are in a serious business on the east coast, you will have trouble getting hired. Change from NORML to a hypothetical organization called: "Organization For the Reduction of Human Rights Violations on US Soil." Now instead of your resume getting thrown away, you get to talk about how people are dying in prison who should instead be productive members of society. The point is, I don't care about NORML, I care about trying to figure out a way to get this country out of this mess and I believe that NORML is branded incorrectly to achieve that goal.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

>1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. IMO, Absolutely not. >2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options? Answer jury summonses. Learn about jury nullification. Pay attention to local elections. > I then went and tried to find other organizations looking to make sweeping changes. I was not successful. The Innocence Project of Texas http://www.ipoftexas.org/ http://www.ipoftexas.org/ Law Enforcement Against Prohibition http://www.leap.cc/ http://www.leap.cc/

Shivetya 13y ago
Jury Nullification seems to get bandied about a lot on tech sites. Yet in practice it is not as easy as one suspects, nor does it happen with any real frequency. It is common that defense attorneys are not allowed to instruct a jury to seek nullification, juries are regularly advised to apply the law in a case, and then there are courts which will screen out prospective jurors if they voice the opinion they don't agree with the law. Then to top it off, you have to get all members of the jury to agree to it. With that you run up against morals and predispositions of the various jurors. It would have to be a pretty damn extreme law, one unfavorable with the public as a whole, to get caught up by a nullification and you can be the authorities would do their best to stack the deck
- tunesmith 13y ago
  Why do you have to get the rest of the jury to agree with it? Isn't it sufficient to have eleven people wanting to convict based off of law, and one person voting no (and sticking to it) because of disagreeing with the law?
wtvanhest 13y ago
Hey, thanks for your comment about LEAP. I had heard of them in the past, but didn't consider them. That may be where I make a donation, but the issue again is that the organization is about prohibition. In an ideal world, the organization would be fighting for human rights and addressing prohibition as the lowest hanging, and first fruit to take off the tree. The Innocence Project is amazing, but does not address the widespread solution we need. A noble organization, ABSOLUTELY! As for your first comment: >1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. IMO, Absolutely not. This is the general opinion of HN, but is it the truth? I'm sure someone has addressed this opinion with honest analysis, but I don't know where it exists. Stating that "they are making a profit" is not good enough because there is more to the question than that. Thanks again for pointing to LEAP. That is definitely a better marketed organization than NORML.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

re [ADDED]: Why is it a deal breaker to share common ground with a group that some people stereotype as undesirable? I mean, prohibition of drugs is one of the main drivers of the huge prison population. NORML, the Marijuana Policy Project, and LEAP Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, are the groups that I am most aware of doing advocacy in this respect.

wtvanhest 13y ago
I appreciate your comment listing the groups. I will look in to LEAP. Why is it a deal breaker to share common ground with a group that some people stereotype as undesirable? I mean, prohibition of drugs is one of the main drivers of the huge prison population. On the West Coast of the US you may be able to get away with open support of NORML at a tech company, but on the East Coast it is pretty much a no go at a serious organization. If I want to make a donation and have my company match it, I can't make it to NORML without having people judge me while I am not aware of it. That is a complete deal breaker. I hope their is an organization out there working on this that is doing in the name of enhanced civil liberties. Currently, it is easy for someone to say "You are supporting a bunch of hippies?" I want it easy for me to say "I can't believe you aren't supporting basic civil liberties"!
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  The ACLU, The EFF, EPIC. It's unfortunate that people make such value judgments, but I've worked at places like that too.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

king_jester 13y ago

> 1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. Prisons in general are bad for society. Prison stays are highly deleterious to people and the communities they will return to. Non-violent crimes should certainly not result in prison time, there is no productive reason for that to happen. Property crimes (e.g. theft) are come about from how society is structured and we would be better off addressing social inequality than investing in increasing incarceration. Violent crimes may be better handled with systems that are structurally different from the current prison system. > 2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options? War on drugs must end. Social inequality with regards to poverty and homelessness need to be seriously tackled. Racism and sexism need to be addressed from a systemic aspect. Finally for those violent crimes that do require some kind of social response alternatives to the current prison system should be explored.

neon_electro 13y ago

Have you seen Marijuana Majority? http://marijuanamajority.com/ http://marijuanamajority.com/