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The Economics of the American Prison System
- btilly 13y agoI don't care how interesting the article is. I do not want to deal with the spammy popups.
- philipcamilleri 13y agoSorry about that. We've disabled that right now...
- VLM 13y agoThe prison industrial complex comes up once in awhile on HN. Its hard to think of a startup topic. Mostly because prisons (including private ones) have been around so long. Maybe a startup designed solely to imprison IP violators, or solely to hold patent violators or people who break private website terms of service or something like that. Maybe a robot guard (or guard tower) to be teleoperated from cheap labor in India, or not operated at all, just pattern match and shoot people who look like they are violating the rules. Something like the MOOC "movement" but dedicated to selling to private prison administrators for their prisoners? Implementing something like "a scanner darkly" is going to happen anyway, startup or not. Maybe a more advanced higher tech house arrest ankle bracelet system?
- listd 13y ago:-) True! (interesting fact about ankle bracelets for house arrests: they were inspired by Spider-Man comics)
- rev_null 13y agoI think it would be an interesting experiment to provide every inmate in a minimum security prison with a computer and access to MOOCS. Then tie their parole to academic performance to incentivize education. It's possible that releasing more employable ex-cons would reduce recidivism.
- jivatmanx 13y agoPrimarily a side effect of the war on drugs.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoI was a prison guard in Texas for a few years (TDCJ, not private). AMA
- pilom 13y ago1. What percentage of the inmates in your prison were there for drug related crimes? 2. What is your opinion on the "war on drugs" and the increased size of the inmate population that it creates?
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago1. That information is available to officers only when the situation requires it. I did have access to inmates' "travel cards" which detail their crimes and other information because I routinely transported inmates to other units; usually to medical or psychiatric facilities. I did not have the ability or occasion to compile statistics, but my best guess is that a lot of them were convicted of drug crimes. My best guess though is really no better than any random person's because there were so many prison units in TDCJ, and the populations of those units were classified partly based on their crimes. Most of the people I transported were violent offenders. 2. A huge and expensive tragedy of justice and of economic policy. Imprisoning people for non-violent drug charges takes what are often productively employed people out of the work force and turns them into a unit of negative productivity, taking with them, probably another additional person by the time you account for all of the officers and support staff needed for running a huge prison infrastructure. People imprisoned even for drug charges rarely re-enter the workforce, at least not at any reasonable level. After release, they are stigmatized and often victimized again through various ex-con hire subsidy programs.
- abecedarius 13y agoHow are they victimized through hire subsidy programs? I hadn't heard of that. Do you mean that because of the program people around them at their jobs know they're ex-cons and treat them worse?
- scilro 13y agoMeanwhile, the DEA is teaming up with the CCA.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoNot too far from the truth. Here a couple of judges busted taking bribes for filling private prisons. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10747919 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10747919 http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/luzerne-s-other-disgraced-judge-a-study-in-contrasts-1.1205381 http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/luzerne-s-other-disgraced-j... Also this: http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/ http://www.texasprisonbidness.org/
- wtvanhest 13y agoThis article has a lot of numbers but it doesn't seem to answer 2 questions which are far more important: 1) Are privately run prisons better for the good of society than publicly run prisons? What does the research say? How biased is the research? etc. 2) More importantly, regardless of whether they are private or public prisons, how do we get less people to be living in them? What are our other options? Last time on HN I asked this and the answer was, "support NORML". I then went and tried to find other organizations looking to make sweeping changes. I was not successful. The problem with NORML is their image. No serious person in business can support an organization that uses a POT leaf as their symbol and seems to be primarily an organization for hippies to sit around and talk about the government. I realize that their image may not be their reality, but I can't write a company matched check to them without people wondering "what I'm smoking". So... The question I am asking is, what can I do about one of the largest human rights atrocities ever committed by the United States, my country? Its obvious that at the very least we can move a lot of people to different types of facilities. We can probably do a lot more than that, possibly reversing 45 years of discriminatory drug laws and possibly taking increased societal risks to reduce the amount of years the average American spends in prison. I'm somewhat distraught that this problem exists but I haven't come up with a solution yet. Anyone out there have any ideas on who I can support or what can be done? [ADDED] The Norml image problem is probably bad on the west coast, but is a deal breaker on the east coast.
- pstuart 13y agoAnd what benefit do we get from locking up any drug user? Legal or not? Are we helping the user or society like this? Hippies? Really? The entire Drug War is a failure and should be offensive to anybody who treasures civil liberties. If you passively accept the status quo then YOU are the problem, because this madness only continues because of sanctimonious people like YOU.
- wtvanhest 13y agoThe drug war is offensive and I am clearly stating that I no longer want to passively accept the status quo. I am also stating that NORML's brand is ineffective and I am looking for a brand I can donate to and possibly volunteer with without a negative impact to my career. Until NORML changes their entire brand, their effectiveness will be limited. They do rally hippies which is a positive, but they won't get serious business people who cannot afford reputation risk no matter the cause. If the people in NORML were serious, they would drop the pot leaf and start talking about civil liberties over "legalization".
- danmaz74 13y agoI remember when I first saw the movie Robocop, and I thought: Privatized police force? Come on, not even in the USA the "markets will fix everything" ideology could go so far. Well, this isn't very far from that. By the way, spending less on rehabilitation doesn't just save money now, it also brings higher recidivism and so makes for a healthier future market for these corporations...
- jonnathanson 13y ago"I remember when I first saw the movie Robocop, and I thought: Privatized police force? Come on, not even in the USA the "markets will fix everything" ideology could go so far." The CCA logo (as seen on the flag) even looks vaguely OCP-ish, like something out of the particularly '80s vision of the corporate future as envisioned in the original Robocop. "spending less on rehabilitation doesn't just save money now, it also brings higher recidivism and so makes for a healthier future market for these corporations..." Exactly. And let's not forget that these same corporations who run prisons also lobby for harsher sentencing, mandatory minimums, looser prison labor laws, and so forth. It's a sticky subject because nobody -- politician, man on the street, mother of children, or law-abiding citizen -- wants to come right out and say that he or she is advocating for prisoner's rights. Nobody's ever won an election being "soft" on crime (at least not to my knowledge). So the prison-industrial complex has it pretty easy, as far as built-in political incentives are concerned. Ultimately their agenda is self-fulfilling, and the social externalities are highly negative. Costs may be cut in the short run, but as you suggest, recidivism means nobody in the system is ever really going to escape it -- hence, we're shortchanging the future to save pennies in the present.
- pstuart 13y agoI'll come out right here and say that I advocate for prisoner's rights. On humanitarian grounds. But if one wanted to do so for the practical matter of wasting less money on prisons and having more productive members of society and less crime, then it would behoove one to do so as well.
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- tptacek 13y agoThere are lots of places besides HN to talk about stuff like this. Every time we try to talk about it here, the level of civility on HN degrades. Sometimes just a little, sometimes by a lot. I assume that's one of the reasons that articles like this are discouraged by the site guidelines. I flagged this post.
- pstuart 13y agoTrue, and I admit to getting hot under the collar. But I would argue that in a way that articles like this should get viewed and discussed by the HN crowd in the context of hacking civilization. This particular subject absolutely defines the world in which we live in, and a it's not a pretty picture. It happens because we let it, and we let it because we collectively don't care. We collectively don't care because we remain (intentionally) ignorant of the situation. It's turtles of despair all the way down....
- spindritf 13y ago> Some states, like Indiana have managed to keep prices low at around $14,000 per inmate. While states like New York pay around $60,000 to keep its citizens behind bars. OK, but what's the benefit? What is the damage to society and economy an average criminal causes over the course of a year? How much in property, lost trust, mental and physical injuries, increased spending on security, etc. does it cost to have the guy on the loose? How much of that benefit are prisons eating? I'd love to see an analysis but my guess would be that housing an inmate for ~30k is a bargain.
- ollysb 13y ago> What is the damage to society and economy an average criminal causes over the course of a year? Those incarcerated for drug use could potentially be making the government a profit. The only negative effects on society are associated with the supply line, not the individual's behaviour. If some drugs were legalised the net benefit to society would be positive, increased income via taxation and improved relations between the police and the public(a large portion of which are drugs users).
- npsimons 13y agoWell, if you want to ask those kinds of questions, then you have to start asking, how much does it cost society to let some pothead remain free? Because that's another aspect of this problem: incarcerating people for victimless crimes.
- tgodard 13y agoAs someone else already commented, the conditions in Texas prisons run by corporations like CCA aren't exactly the greatest. The state of Texas currently pays, on average, $21k per prisoner. Keeping the prices low at $14k per inmate in states like Indiana and Kentucky could potentially be creating additional costs to the state in the form of recidivism, and other social problems. We didn't find conclusive data (comprehensive hard dollar figures)on this but answering your question is the next step.
- Bryan22 13y agoWhat, exactly, is "an average criminal"? There are laws against causing damage to property that's not yours. No one is saying let all the criminals out. Just stop putting people in jail for hurting absolutely nobody except themselves. 30k a year is a bargain? That's a laugh. regular people live on much less than 30k a year in furnished houses, why should an 8x8 cell and one guard per n inmates cost more than a large number of people make in a year? Why do you and I foot the bill for their medical and education costs? I can hardly afford my own education, much less an education for inmates. If you're not disturbed or angry, or at least critical of the current situation, you should consider a reappraisal of your view on what a bargain is.
- arbuge 13y agoAlot of these articles miss an important part of the equation by just looking at the direct costs to taxpayers to run prison facilities. There are alot more costs to the incarceration mentality than just that. There is the cost of the entire justice system - police, judges, attorneys, and so on. Add to that the lost productivity of inmates who could be holding down jobs instead of just twiddling their thumbs. Then you have costs borne by the inmates' families to visit them, make up for their absence etc. I think the overall cost to American society from locking up so many people is staggering when you add it all up. Unfortunately people still vote for politicians who promise to be "tough(er) on crime" and the cycle continues...
- jiggy2011 13y agoBut then you need to offset that against the damage that would be done if that person was not incarcerated. The $ amount of damage a car thief can do in one month is very high.
- cheeseprocedure 13y agoThe article specifically mentions incarcerations skyrocketing as a result of the drug war. Throwing petty dealers in prison is not an effective use of taxpayer dollars.
- jiggy2011 13y agoBear in mind that drug dealers are not known to be the most civic minded people and likely commit other offenses. Drug dealing is just what they got busted for. I've known areas of my town get dramatically safer after some big drug busts. The drug trade has significant externalities.
- deelowe 13y agoIf it wasn't illegal, there would be no illegal drug trade. Most drug related offenses are during nonviolent events. Drugs are popular in low income areas which is also where there's a lot of other crime. Decriminalizing drugs won't change this, but it will allow the system (legislators, police, & judges) to focus on the crimes that do harm society. Take that to it's logicial conclusion and it's not hard to arrive at the decision that the war on drugs is bad for society.
- la-conic 13y agoDon't mean to flamebate but every time I read one of these article this book comes to mind. http://www.amazon.com/In-Defense-Flogging-Peter-Moskos/dp/0465021484 http://www.amazon.com/In-Defense-Flogging-Peter-Moskos/dp/04...
- samolang 13y agoThe author mentions private prison scandals, but neglects to mention that scandals occur in public prisons like [1] this one as well. [1] http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/04/23/25-correctional-officers-inmates-indicted-for-gang-activity-in-baltimore-jails/ http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/04/23/25-correctional-off...
- mathattack 13y agoI would like to see data on whether these private prisons are unionized. It seems like the prison unions are out to keep their services needed. http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2011/06/the-role-of-the-prison-guards-union-in-californias-troubled-prison-system/ http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2011/06/the-role-of-the-p... http://www.policymic.com/articles/41531/union-of-the-snake-how-california-s-prison-guards-subvert-democracy http://www.policymic.com/articles/41531/union-of-the-snake-h...