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My stomach churns at many of the outrageous over reaches of the US Government: secret kill lists; secret criteria to get on secret kill lists; indefinite detent

My stomach churns at many of the outrageous over reaches of the US Government: secret kill lists; secret criteria to get on secret kill lists; indefinite detention without due process; warrantless wiretapping; warrantless collection of all electronic communication; illegal wars (perhaps the most debatable, but I would go toe to toe with anyone in a real discussion on this vis-a-vis the UN Charter) I agree it is our duty to speak up, be heard and demand better of our government; however, my stomach churns equally at the notion of people thinking they grew up in a country so much different than it is today. It does not matter how far you go back there have always been these kinds of governmental abuses: the genocide of Native Americans; slavery; indefinite detention of Japanese in internment camps; apartheid (separate but equal/Jim Crow Laws); covert wars (support the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan; Nicaraguan contras; installing the Cuban Batista regime; installing Saddam and the Ba'ath party); illegal wars: Vietnam (again debatable); war time atrocities (May Lai Massacre); torture (during Vietnam US military had interrogation handbooks that directed stipping POW's naked in the forest and covering their orifices with honey and allowing flys and bugs to swarm); Watergate (manipulated elections); CIA infiltrating organizations such as the ACLU. We can not blindly look at our current state of affairs and yearn to be what we once were, because we were never anything different, it is far more important to look toward history and not allow the same mistakes to continually be repeated. I think one of the most important things to take away from Wozniak's words is how the dialogue has changed and we will not blindly fall in line to the tune of patriotic propaganda but ordinary citizenry will stand up and be the true check on the government that was always intended. When I look at the US Constitution I see two things, rights and powers, and I must say I feel a lot more comfortable when the balance is greatly in favor of rights over powers. Allow me to end with one of my favorite political quotes, “Every generation needs a new revolution.” Thomas Jefferson (Note, I believe revolutions can be accomplished through non-violent means)

ekianjo 13y ago
> however, my stomach churns equally at the notion of people thinking they grew up in a country so much different than it is today. It does not matter how far you go back there have always been these kinds of governmental abuses I think you get it wrong. Because even if they were abuses before, they were clearly illegal and you could make a case against them.　Now, they enact laws to make constitutional rights null and void.　It's way worse because it opens up the Pandora box on all new kind of abuses with no way for the Law to protect yourself.
- will_brown 13y ago
  >Because even if they were abuses before, they were clearly illegal Not the case. Some of the examples I give were in fact codified into law. Examples: slavery; Jim Crow Laws; Vietnam. Try telling those people affected by separate but equal, that we have it so much worse today, because they could make a case, and that they had law protecting them. Long before Brown v. Board and Brown v. Board II the Supreme Court heard cases on separate but equal/Jim Crow laws and found them constitutional. You are correct that some of my examples were not codified into law, but we have those examples today such as the IRS having directives to target certain groups for additional scrutiny, it does not make it any better that such behavior is a directive only and not codified into law. I believe there is no answer that fits every situation, but in theory at least there is a mechanism to challenge Unconstitutional laws, but good luck challenging a secret directive that violates Constitutional rights.

ekianjo 13y ago

> however, my stomach churns equally at the notion of people thinking they grew up in a country so much different than it is today. It does not matter how far you go back there have always been these kinds of governmental abuses I think you get it wrong. Because even if they were abuses before, they were clearly illegal and you could make a case against them.　Now, they enact laws to make constitutional rights null and void.　It's way worse because it opens up the Pandora box on all new kind of abuses with no way for the Law to protect yourself.

will_brown 13y ago
>Because even if they were abuses before, they were clearly illegal Not the case. Some of the examples I give were in fact codified into law. Examples: slavery; Jim Crow Laws; Vietnam. Try telling those people affected by separate but equal, that we have it so much worse today, because they could make a case, and that they had law protecting them. Long before Brown v. Board and Brown v. Board II the Supreme Court heard cases on separate but equal/Jim Crow laws and found them constitutional. You are correct that some of my examples were not codified into law, but we have those examples today such as the IRS having directives to target certain groups for additional scrutiny, it does not make it any better that such behavior is a directive only and not codified into law. I believe there is no answer that fits every situation, but in theory at least there is a mechanism to challenge Unconstitutional laws, but good luck challenging a secret directive that violates Constitutional rights.