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A one-issue voter is bad enough, but an irrelevant non-issue voter really takes the cake. Who gives a flying fuck, are you afraid he'll outlaw evolving or some

A one-issue voter is bad enough, but an irrelevant non-issue voter really takes the cake. Who gives a flying fuck, are you afraid he'll outlaw evolving or something? And what does being a medical doctor have to do with evolution? Evolution has no effect on medication at that level.

blots 13y ago
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_01 http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_01
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Nice try. Now differentiate between a medical doctor and a medical researcher.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    I don't see the difference. I don't trust either of them to do their jobs properly if their mental model of reality is based on religion. If my doctor doesn't accept evolutionary theory, I have to wonder what else he doesn't accept. Can I trust him to advise on my childrens' vaccinations? Will he give me wife good advice on birth control? Did he just prescribe a homeopathic remedy for my high blood pressure? I prefer dealing with professionals who use the best available evidence to make decisions in both their professional and personal lives. That way I don't have to wonder who he/she answers to at the end of the day. And that rules out MDs who don't accept the basic tenets of modern biology.
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      The difference is doing research and applying research. As long as they base their treatment on effectiveness rather than prayer, I don't care that they pray. If it makes them a happier and more peaceful person, it might do good. Unhappy people make for shitty doctors. I don't see the difference. I don't trust either of them to do their jobs properly if their mental model of reality is based on religion. And you consider that rational? Do I care if my car mechanic believes in ghosts? Why would it matter? Because it might mean he could have other strange ideas as well? How about I cross that bridge when I get to it and first meet the person, and maybe start caring about their beliefs once they actually do fuck up, instead of plastering my beliefs about their beliefs, and how it influences their work, all over it and calling it a day? At any rate, I would sooner look out for their office being littered with gifts from pharma salesmen and ads, if you catch my drift, and you can worry about bogeymen in the meantime.
      - CamperBob2 13y ago
        And you consider that rational? Obviously I do, since I'm the one who said it. Do I care if my car mechanic believes in ghosts? Do you care if your electrician believes in Ohm's Law? Because that's what it means to deny evolution, for anyone whose job is even remotely connected to biological science. Your car mechanic analogy is irrelevant, because car mechanics don't confront decisions in their professional life that may bring them into conflict with their religion. A better way to phrase your question might be, "Do you care if your car mechanic believes in phlogiston?" That would be "Yes."
        flyinRyan 13y ago
        >Because that's what it means to deny evolution, for anyone whose job is even remotely connected to biological science. That's absolutely not true. Do you somehow not realize that the process that evolution describes takes millions of years to work? There is no possible way that disbelieving evolution can effect the effectiveness as a doctor. That's like saying you can't develop a PHP app unless you understand Turing theory. The bulk of the internet proves such an assertion wrong.
        CamperBob2 13y ago
        Sorry, but it sounds like you're poorly-informed on the subject, or otherwise biased. We're unlikely to reach agreement. And good luck with those Turing-denying programmers you hired. Let us know how they work out in the long run. There's a difference between someone who doesn't completely understand a given theory but accepts the process that led to it, and someone who actively denies the theory and, in doing so, rejects the entire epistemological framework it rests on.
        flyinRyan 13y ago
        >Sorry, but it sounds like you're poorly-informed on the subject, or otherwise biased. I'm still waiting for you to give a concrete example where not knowing or believing evolution will cause a doctor to make a wrong choice. At is typical, people like yourself rely on hand wavy "you just don't understand" nonsense. >And good luck with those Turing-denying programmers you hired. Let us know how they work out in the long run. What I'm telling you is that most of the PHP sites on the web are made by people with little or no understanding of the fundamentals of the technology they use. And they make a living just fine. Honestly, I suspect Zuckerberg would be in this group as well. Fundamental understanding is never required to get results, no matter how much we may wish it so.
antimagic 13y ago
Antibiotic resistance? Genetic diseases? The evolution of various viruses? I for one do not let any doctor near me that doesn't think that evolution is a real thing.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  If the doctor learned his material properly, what difference would his belief that you evolved from some base mammal vs. belief that humans were created by God a few thousand years ago make? So long as he's following current understanding of what medicines and procedures work, the why doesn't matter all that much and what humans were like a million years ago has literally zero bearing on anything your local doctor will ever do for you.
  - antimagic 13y ago
    If a doctor learned his material properly, he would know that humans evolved from a type of ape. The fact that he believes otherwise immediately puts in to doubt whether he has or not learned his material. As to whether or not someone can just learn what has to be done in a specific situation or not, let me ask you this: do you prefer working with developer colleagues that work with Cargo Cult mentality or because they understand the underlying technology that they use? And which of those two developers produces better work? Yeah, I choose doctors that understand evolution.
    - flyinRyan 13y ago
      If the developer were the best I could hope for I wouldn't take someone worse because of his sad, but ultimately irrelevant beliefs. I would hope I could build on his work enough to get someone better later. I would certainly never shoot myself in the foot by picking someone (or allowing someone to be picked) who had more solid beliefs but was dangerous to the project.
      - antimagic 13y ago
        And we were always at war with EastAsia. In this particular case, the beliefs are not irrelevant - doctors need to correctly understand evolution to correctly carry out their duties. Also, I fail to see how someone that understands their job could be considered more dangerous in doing that job than someone that is cluelessly copying something they've been told. To be clear, I can imagine a competent psychopath being more dangerous than an incompetent normal person, but psycopathy is orthogonal to the discussion here, I hope you agree.
CamperBob2 13y ago
(Shrug) If someone's thinking is that broken, I don't want them to have power over me.

blots 13y ago

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_01 http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_01

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Nice try. Now differentiate between a medical doctor and a medical researcher.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  I don't see the difference. I don't trust either of them to do their jobs properly if their mental model of reality is based on religion. If my doctor doesn't accept evolutionary theory, I have to wonder what else he doesn't accept. Can I trust him to advise on my childrens' vaccinations? Will he give me wife good advice on birth control? Did he just prescribe a homeopathic remedy for my high blood pressure? I prefer dealing with professionals who use the best available evidence to make decisions in both their professional and personal lives. That way I don't have to wonder who he/she answers to at the end of the day. And that rules out MDs who don't accept the basic tenets of modern biology.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    The difference is doing research and applying research. As long as they base their treatment on effectiveness rather than prayer, I don't care that they pray. If it makes them a happier and more peaceful person, it might do good. Unhappy people make for shitty doctors. I don't see the difference. I don't trust either of them to do their jobs properly if their mental model of reality is based on religion. And you consider that rational? Do I care if my car mechanic believes in ghosts? Why would it matter? Because it might mean he could have other strange ideas as well? How about I cross that bridge when I get to it and first meet the person, and maybe start caring about their beliefs once they actually do fuck up, instead of plastering my beliefs about their beliefs, and how it influences their work, all over it and calling it a day? At any rate, I would sooner look out for their office being littered with gifts from pharma salesmen and ads, if you catch my drift, and you can worry about bogeymen in the meantime.
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      And you consider that rational? Obviously I do, since I'm the one who said it. Do I care if my car mechanic believes in ghosts? Do you care if your electrician believes in Ohm's Law? Because that's what it means to deny evolution, for anyone whose job is even remotely connected to biological science. Your car mechanic analogy is irrelevant, because car mechanics don't confront decisions in their professional life that may bring them into conflict with their religion. A better way to phrase your question might be, "Do you care if your car mechanic believes in phlogiston?" That would be "Yes."
      - flyinRyan 13y ago
        >Because that's what it means to deny evolution, for anyone whose job is even remotely connected to biological science. That's absolutely not true. Do you somehow not realize that the process that evolution describes takes millions of years to work? There is no possible way that disbelieving evolution can effect the effectiveness as a doctor. That's like saying you can't develop a PHP app unless you understand Turing theory. The bulk of the internet proves such an assertion wrong.
        CamperBob2 13y ago
        Sorry, but it sounds like you're poorly-informed on the subject, or otherwise biased. We're unlikely to reach agreement. And good luck with those Turing-denying programmers you hired. Let us know how they work out in the long run. There's a difference between someone who doesn't completely understand a given theory but accepts the process that led to it, and someone who actively denies the theory and, in doing so, rejects the entire epistemological framework it rests on.
        flyinRyan 13y ago
        >Sorry, but it sounds like you're poorly-informed on the subject, or otherwise biased. I'm still waiting for you to give a concrete example where not knowing or believing evolution will cause a doctor to make a wrong choice. At is typical, people like yourself rely on hand wavy "you just don't understand" nonsense. >And good luck with those Turing-denying programmers you hired. Let us know how they work out in the long run. What I'm telling you is that most of the PHP sites on the web are made by people with little or no understanding of the fundamentals of the technology they use. And they make a living just fine. Honestly, I suspect Zuckerberg would be in this group as well. Fundamental understanding is never required to get results, no matter how much we may wish it so.

antimagic 13y ago

Antibiotic resistance? Genetic diseases? The evolution of various viruses? I for one do not let any doctor near me that doesn't think that evolution is a real thing.

flyinRyan 13y ago
If the doctor learned his material properly, what difference would his belief that you evolved from some base mammal vs. belief that humans were created by God a few thousand years ago make? So long as he's following current understanding of what medicines and procedures work, the why doesn't matter all that much and what humans were like a million years ago has literally zero bearing on anything your local doctor will ever do for you.
- antimagic 13y ago
  If a doctor learned his material properly, he would know that humans evolved from a type of ape. The fact that he believes otherwise immediately puts in to doubt whether he has or not learned his material. As to whether or not someone can just learn what has to be done in a specific situation or not, let me ask you this: do you prefer working with developer colleagues that work with Cargo Cult mentality or because they understand the underlying technology that they use? And which of those two developers produces better work? Yeah, I choose doctors that understand evolution.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    If the developer were the best I could hope for I wouldn't take someone worse because of his sad, but ultimately irrelevant beliefs. I would hope I could build on his work enough to get someone better later. I would certainly never shoot myself in the foot by picking someone (or allowing someone to be picked) who had more solid beliefs but was dangerous to the project.
    - antimagic 13y ago
      And we were always at war with EastAsia. In this particular case, the beliefs are not irrelevant - doctors need to correctly understand evolution to correctly carry out their duties. Also, I fail to see how someone that understands their job could be considered more dangerous in doing that job than someone that is cluelessly copying something they've been told. To be clear, I can imagine a competent psychopath being more dangerous than an incompetent normal person, but psycopathy is orthogonal to the discussion here, I hope you agree.

CamperBob2 13y ago

(Shrug) If someone's thinking is that broken, I don't want them to have power over me.