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If we're going to be swapping things at charging stations, why not use a technology like this: http://www.phinergy.com/ http://www.phinergy.com/ Takes a refil

If we're going to be swapping things at charging stations, why not use a technology like this: http://www.phinergy.com/ http://www.phinergy.com/ Takes a refill of plain water every ~200 miles and a swapping of aluminum at larger intervals. Aluminum is common as is the recycling of it. It's also a lot easier to handle than battery packs I would imagine -- lighter, safer, etc. Not sure about the range but early press suggests it to be at least 1k miles between changes. I put around 4k miles on my car a year (much lower than average, I know). I take my car in at least twice a year for service so it would get half of them "for free". Even at 12k miles per year that's only once a month. If it could be done in 15 minutes (a number I just made up) that's not much of a PITA. I wonder what the cost would be vs gasoline vs the cost of buying a car packed with LIBs.

dram 13y ago
Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. Phinergy said they'll have a 1000-mile EV by 2017. Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-tesla-cars-use-metal-air-batteries http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-t... But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high...
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  > Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. > Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. Sounds like Musk can imagine it. Don't know about anybody else but I'll side with Musk vs anonymous HN poster #5674. > But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high... All jets crash if they fly too high. (Well, it's not necessary that they crash but they have a well defined operational ceiling.)
  - dram 13y ago
    Perhaps I am misreading your comment but "can't imagine" is a figure of speech. I meant I was excited for the possibility. And the last statement was just referencing my ignorance about metal-air batteries working in oxygen-limited environments.
coryrc 13y ago
> why not use a technology like this Because it is highly inefficient, requires a large infrastructure, is susceptible to air pollution, and has low power density? Versus battery electrics have infrastructure at every home, are upwards of 93% efficient, don't use air, and have plenty of power.
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  > and has low power density Wikipedia: "They have one of the highest energy densities of all batteries ... an electric vehicle with aluminium batteries has the potential for up to eight times the range of a lithium-ion battery with a significantly lower total weight." > Because it is highly inefficient I just read in the 20 - 30% range. One, that's a lot better than a gas burner. Two, your magical 93% doesn't account for the efficiency of the source of the electricity. Over 40% of the electricity produced in the US is from coal. The average efficiency of a coal plant is around 30%. Coal plants are also the #1 source of greenhouse gasses in the US.
scythe 13y ago
So the preeminent difficulty with aluminum-air is the cost of aluminum. Going off phinergy's number (8 kWh/kg), and assuming Tesla-parity range of 260 miles for an 85 kWh fill-up, you need 10.5 kg Al per fill-up, which costs $1.80/kg on the London Metal Exchange as of today, costing about $20/fill-up, or -eep- eight cents a mile, before considering tax, transit, manufacturing etc. For comparison my 2009 Toyota Prius (yes, I -am- that lame) costs nine cents a mile for fuel (350 miles, nine gallons, $3.50/gal). So aluminum-air largely negates the cost advantage of an electric battery, unless phinergy can come up with a superior way of making aluminum, which is already one of the most optimized processes in modern industry: the cryolite process has absorbed millions of hours of human attention. If the power-density problems can be solved, zinc-air or similar may still be a good idea. Zinc is, unfortunately, quite heavy. Incidentally, I have put over 15k miles on my car this year alone. Some people drive a lot.
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  That doesn't account for the recycling of the aluminum which by itself is quite efficient. I just pulled up a number of around $1/kg for scrap aluminum. That's 55% of your cost. I'm sure that's wildly optimistic but that drops your fill up to under $10. That's in the ballpark of the electricity costs for the Tesla.
  - scythe 13y ago
    I'm afraid it's not that easy. The aluminum used in the battery is oxidized and must renter the cryolite process to be electrolysed; it's no ordinary recycling. There isn't enough scrap aluminum in the world to power 1000 cars, let alone 10000000!

dram 13y ago

Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. Phinergy said they'll have a 1000-mile EV by 2017. Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-tesla-cars-use-metal-air-batteries http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-t... But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high...

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
> Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. > Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. Sounds like Musk can imagine it. Don't know about anybody else but I'll side with Musk vs anonymous HN poster #5674. > But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high... All jets crash if they fly too high. (Well, it's not necessary that they crash but they have a well defined operational ceiling.)
- dram 13y ago
  Perhaps I am misreading your comment but "can't imagine" is a figure of speech. I meant I was excited for the possibility. And the last statement was just referencing my ignorance about metal-air batteries working in oxygen-limited environments.

coryrc 13y ago

> why not use a technology like this Because it is highly inefficient, requires a large infrastructure, is susceptible to air pollution, and has low power density? Versus battery electrics have infrastructure at every home, are upwards of 93% efficient, don't use air, and have plenty of power.

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
> and has low power density Wikipedia: "They have one of the highest energy densities of all batteries ... an electric vehicle with aluminium batteries has the potential for up to eight times the range of a lithium-ion battery with a significantly lower total weight." > Because it is highly inefficient I just read in the 20 - 30% range. One, that's a lot better than a gas burner. Two, your magical 93% doesn't account for the efficiency of the source of the electricity. Over 40% of the electricity produced in the US is from coal. The average efficiency of a coal plant is around 30%. Coal plants are also the #1 source of greenhouse gasses in the US.

scythe 13y ago

So the preeminent difficulty with aluminum-air is the cost of aluminum. Going off phinergy's number (8 kWh/kg), and assuming Tesla-parity range of 260 miles for an 85 kWh fill-up, you need 10.5 kg Al per fill-up, which costs $1.80/kg on the London Metal Exchange as of today, costing about $20/fill-up, or -eep- eight cents a mile, before considering tax, transit, manufacturing etc. For comparison my 2009 Toyota Prius (yes, I -am- that lame) costs nine cents a mile for fuel (350 miles, nine gallons, $3.50/gal). So aluminum-air largely negates the cost advantage of an electric battery, unless phinergy can come up with a superior way of making aluminum, which is already one of the most optimized processes in modern industry: the cryolite process has absorbed millions of hours of human attention. If the power-density problems can be solved, zinc-air or similar may still be a good idea. Zinc is, unfortunately, quite heavy. Incidentally, I have put over 15k miles on my car this year alone. Some people drive a lot.

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
That doesn't account for the recycling of the aluminum which by itself is quite efficient. I just pulled up a number of around $1/kg for scrap aluminum. That's 55% of your cost. I'm sure that's wildly optimistic but that drops your fill up to under $10. That's in the ballpark of the electricity costs for the Tesla.
- scythe 13y ago
  I'm afraid it's not that easy. The aluminum used in the battery is oxidized and must renter the cryolite process to be electrolysed; it's no ordinary recycling. There isn't enough scrap aluminum in the world to power 1000 cars, let alone 10000000!