4 ms·

If I understand the idea correctly, you'd be swapping out your (depleted from a road trip) battery for someone else's (or Tesla's, if they shifted to a model wh

by waster 13y ago

If I understand the idea correctly, you'd be swapping out your (depleted from a road trip) battery for someone else's (or Tesla's, if they shifted to a model where they provide some of the batteries at the swap-out stations), and then next time you wanted to swap again, you'd get another one. Doesn't seem to me to be a factor for resale. Seems like they're pitching it instead as a way to increase the range of a car while on the road, though I'm willing to say I've misunderstood based on my (twice) read of the article. If they are planning to release further detail Thursday, though, that'll presumably clarify.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- lifeformed 13y ago
  Well, presumably the swapping company would make sure the batteries are well maintained. If someone swaps out a damaged battery, the process should detect that and charge them extra, and not put the bad battery in the queue for swapping.
  - skaevola 13y ago
    That opens up a whole can of worms. How do you quantify the damage? If my battery is degraded 10% do I pay $15,000 * .1 = $1,500 just to get back on the highway? Like I said, this is easy if the customers don't own the batteries, but right now they do, and those batteries are very expensive. I think perfecting the whole supercharging system makes more sense.
    - waster 13y ago
      If I were Tesla, I'd do both.
      - incompatible 13y ago
        Which would be nice for owners. Recharge your battery until it shows signs of age. Then swap it out repeatedly until you get a newish one, then go back to recharging only.
        schiffern 13y ago
        Self-service battery warranty. It's a win-win.
        akiselev 13y ago
        Combine it with a better recycling process: lithium based batteries are insanely energy intensive to produce to begin with so they are a great candidate. Then, chose the most efficient point in the life cycle to recycle the battery to recover the most cost. Since you're extremely unlikely to use a swap station for the first time after having used the car a long time, the risk to Tesla can be minimized. Factor in the price of recycling with a cynical view of the average user and everyone gets a price decrease on the batteries without the sticker shock of seeing the battery cost all at once. Really you'd sell your Tesla's with an already recycled battery and a couple of years of swapping thrown in. You can price it just like you price car insurance, based on amount of miles driven a year. Anything that puts more control of the most unproven tech into the hands of Tesla, the faster their batteries will improve. But maybe this is all just too expensive to implement without millions of cars on the road.
  - monting 13y ago
    Agreed. Though I imagine it'd be a subscription model, where if you're in the program, you won't have to worry about battery capacity/depreciation at all. The capacity of batteries in rotation would be maintained at a certain level, and the old batteries recycled or used as storage for the superchargers. I think it could potentially cost less than the monthly cost of gasoline for most people.
    - schiffern 13y ago
      >used as storage for the superchargers Superchargers don't use batteries. SolarCity does, though. http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage.aspx http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage.aspx
      - monting 13y ago
        Oh but they do/will. Musk said that the ones with solar panels can go completely off the grid and continue to work in a zombie apocalypse. The only way that is accomplished is through energy storage. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100777849 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100777849
sp332 13y ago
If they take my (say) brand-new Southern California battery and replace it with someone's two-year-old Salt Belt battery, that's going to decrease the value of my car.
- schiffern 13y ago
  >that's going to decrease the value of my car. Forgive my ignorance, but how? Cheap battery swapping would mean that all batteries are essentially fungible. What stops the new owner from just swapping batteries again? What stops you? You're also forgetting that Tesla has a very generous battery warranty. Unless you don't think they'll honor it. http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/26/autos/tesla-service-gaurantee/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/26/autos/tesla-service-gaurante...
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Cheap battery swapping would mean that all batteries are essentially fungible Which will be interesting. I wonder if at that point the "tragedy of the commons" would start to set in. "Oh, it's ok if I run this battery totally flat all the time, it will shorten the battery's lifespan a lot, but I can just swap it for another!"
    - whatshisface 13y ago
      You could use the battery controller to implement restrictions. (E.g. allow it to be run flat only once per owner per month) or perhaps simply log the stresses they put on the unit and charge accordingly.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - schiffern 13y ago
      Why would you leave your car intentionally empty? Why inconvenience yourself like that? There might be people who can't plug in, but that'll happen regardless of swapping. You might make the argument that swapping could convince more people in that situation to buy the car, but that's hardly a downside for Tesla Motors. >it will shorten the battery's lifespan a lot It doesn't do that if you set your depth-of-discharge correctly. Lithium cells are more sensitive to temperature than charge cycles anyway.

by waster 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

lifeformed 13y ago
Well, presumably the swapping company would make sure the batteries are well maintained. If someone swaps out a damaged battery, the process should detect that and charge them extra, and not put the bad battery in the queue for swapping.
- skaevola 13y ago
  That opens up a whole can of worms. How do you quantify the damage? If my battery is degraded 10% do I pay $15,000 * .1 = $1,500 just to get back on the highway? Like I said, this is easy if the customers don't own the batteries, but right now they do, and those batteries are very expensive. I think perfecting the whole supercharging system makes more sense.
  - waster 13y ago
    If I were Tesla, I'd do both.
    - incompatible 13y ago
      Which would be nice for owners. Recharge your battery until it shows signs of age. Then swap it out repeatedly until you get a newish one, then go back to recharging only.
      - schiffern 13y ago
        Self-service battery warranty. It's a win-win.
      - akiselev 13y ago
        Combine it with a better recycling process: lithium based batteries are insanely energy intensive to produce to begin with so they are a great candidate. Then, chose the most efficient point in the life cycle to recycle the battery to recover the most cost. Since you're extremely unlikely to use a swap station for the first time after having used the car a long time, the risk to Tesla can be minimized. Factor in the price of recycling with a cynical view of the average user and everyone gets a price decrease on the batteries without the sticker shock of seeing the battery cost all at once. Really you'd sell your Tesla's with an already recycled battery and a couple of years of swapping thrown in. You can price it just like you price car insurance, based on amount of miles driven a year. Anything that puts more control of the most unproven tech into the hands of Tesla, the faster their batteries will improve. But maybe this is all just too expensive to implement without millions of cars on the road.
- monting 13y ago
  Agreed. Though I imagine it'd be a subscription model, where if you're in the program, you won't have to worry about battery capacity/depreciation at all. The capacity of batteries in rotation would be maintained at a certain level, and the old batteries recycled or used as storage for the superchargers. I think it could potentially cost less than the monthly cost of gasoline for most people.
  - schiffern 13y ago
    >used as storage for the superchargers Superchargers don't use batteries. SolarCity does, though. http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage.aspx http://www.solarcity.com/residential/energy-storage.aspx
    - monting 13y ago
      Oh but they do/will. Musk said that the ones with solar panels can go completely off the grid and continue to work in a zombie apocalypse. The only way that is accomplished is through energy storage. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100777849 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100777849

sp332 13y ago

If they take my (say) brand-new Southern California battery and replace it with someone's two-year-old Salt Belt battery, that's going to decrease the value of my car.

schiffern 13y ago
>that's going to decrease the value of my car. Forgive my ignorance, but how? Cheap battery swapping would mean that all batteries are essentially fungible. What stops the new owner from just swapping batteries again? What stops you? You're also forgetting that Tesla has a very generous battery warranty. Unless you don't think they'll honor it. http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/26/autos/tesla-service-gaurantee/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/26/autos/tesla-service-gaurante...
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Cheap battery swapping would mean that all batteries are essentially fungible Which will be interesting. I wonder if at that point the "tragedy of the commons" would start to set in. "Oh, it's ok if I run this battery totally flat all the time, it will shorten the battery's lifespan a lot, but I can just swap it for another!"
  - whatshisface 13y ago
    You could use the battery controller to implement restrictions. (E.g. allow it to be run flat only once per owner per month) or perhaps simply log the stresses they put on the unit and charge accordingly.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - schiffern 13y ago
    Why would you leave your car intentionally empty? Why inconvenience yourself like that? There might be people who can't plug in, but that'll happen regardless of swapping. You might make the argument that swapping could convince more people in that situation to buy the car, but that's hardly a downside for Tesla Motors. >it will shorten the battery's lifespan a lot It doesn't do that if you set your depth-of-discharge correctly. Lithium cells are more sensitive to temperature than charge cycles anyway.