8 ms·

Low batteries on your Tesla? Swap ‘em out

44 points by waster 13y ago

waster 13y ago
Though I'll believe it when I see it in (user) action, this would make a huge difference, IMHO, in the usability of the car. It would make it truly feasible to drive to Tahoe from the Bay Area, for example. That's something I'd pay for.
- schiffern 13y ago
  ::checks GMaps:: TIL a 4 hour 20 minute trip is unfeasible, but a 3 hour 50 minute one is fine. ;)
  - waster 13y ago
    Until you're traveling at freeway speeds, in cold weather. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the... So I'm not sure even 3 hr 50 m would do it?
  - acchow 13y ago
    SF to tahoe (on I-80) never takes me 4 hours ;)
- vicaya 13y ago
  It's been done according to http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-dont-ignore-warnings http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-dont-ig... There is a supercharger at Folsom, so it's totally feasible. I'm just waiting for a Model X AWD :)
skaevola 13y ago
I don't think battery swapping is a great idea. The problem is that the battery is such a huge part of the car's cost. I can only guess, but I would estimate $15,000-20,000. Getting someone else's poorly treated battery could drastically effect the resale value of the car. The other company in the article tried to mitigate this problem by actually owning the batteries, but that isn't Tesla's model.
- waster 13y ago
  If I understand the idea correctly, you'd be swapping out your (depleted from a road trip) battery for someone else's (or Tesla's, if they shifted to a model where they provide some of the batteries at the swap-out stations), and then next time you wanted to swap again, you'd get another one. Doesn't seem to me to be a factor for resale. Seems like they're pitching it instead as a way to increase the range of a car while on the road, though I'm willing to say I've misunderstood based on my (twice) read of the article. If they are planning to release further detail Thursday, though, that'll presumably clarify.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - lifeformed 13y ago
      Well, presumably the swapping company would make sure the batteries are well maintained. If someone swaps out a damaged battery, the process should detect that and charge them extra, and not put the bad battery in the queue for swapping.
      - skaevola 13y ago
        That opens up a whole can of worms. How do you quantify the damage? If my battery is degraded 10% do I pay $15,000 * .1 = $1,500 just to get back on the highway? Like I said, this is easy if the customers don't own the batteries, but right now they do, and those batteries are very expensive. I think perfecting the whole supercharging system makes more sense.
        waster 13y ago
        If I were Tesla, I'd do both.
        incompatible 13y ago
codex 13y ago
I wonder if this is motivated by ZEV credits; I think rapid refill zero emission vehicles qualify for a lot more credits--possibly even if no owners take advantage of the feature. So just having a few rapid recharge stations that nobody uses could be a huge financial windfall for Tesla, allowing them more profit on each car sold--again, even if owners never once swap a battery.
- FriedPickles 13y ago
  Source? My search was fruitless.
  - codex 13y ago
    www.greencarcongress.com/2013/05/zev-20130502.html Looks liken California is thinking of closing this loophole; nothing a little lobbying can't fix.
DannoHung 13y ago
High overhead, but if it can be done quickly and for a not exorbitant price, probably a winning idea. I imagine they'd charge people a yearly service to be in such a program.
lingben 13y ago
wasn't this the premise of the Israeli startup, Better Place? which just went bankrupt?
- softbuilder 13y ago
  The article talks about that.
- kalleboo 13y ago
  A Better Place's problems were getting car manufacturers onboard, and building infrastructure. Tesla ARE a care manufacturer, and they're already building infrastructure (their charging stations)
mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
If we're going to be swapping things at charging stations, why not use a technology like this: http://www.phinergy.com/ http://www.phinergy.com/ Takes a refill of plain water every ~200 miles and a swapping of aluminum at larger intervals. Aluminum is common as is the recycling of it. It's also a lot easier to handle than battery packs I would imagine -- lighter, safer, etc. Not sure about the range but early press suggests it to be at least 1k miles between changes. I put around 4k miles on my car a year (much lower than average, I know). I take my car in at least twice a year for service so it would get half of them "for free". Even at 12k miles per year that's only once a month. If it could be done in 15 minutes (a number I just made up) that's not much of a PITA. I wonder what the cost would be vs gasoline vs the cost of buying a car packed with LIBs.
- dram 13y ago
  Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. Phinergy said they'll have a 1000-mile EV by 2017. Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-tesla-cars-use-metal-air-batteries http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-t... But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high...
  - mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
    > Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. > Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. Sounds like Musk can imagine it. Don't know about anybody else but I'll side with Musk vs anonymous HN poster #5674. > But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high... All jets crash if they fly too high. (Well, it's not necessary that they crash but they have a well defined operational ceiling.)
    - dram 13y ago
      Perhaps I am misreading your comment but "can't imagine" is a figure of speech. I meant I was excited for the possibility. And the last statement was just referencing my ignorance about metal-air batteries working in oxygen-limited environments.

44 points by waster 13y ago

Though I'll believe it when I see it in (user) action, this would make a huge difference, IMHO, in the usability of the car. It would make it truly feasible to drive to Tahoe from the Bay Area, for example. That's something I'd pay for.

schiffern 13y ago
::checks GMaps:: TIL a 4 hour 20 minute trip is unfeasible, but a 3 hour 50 minute one is fine. ;)
- waster 13y ago
  Until you're traveling at freeway speeds, in cold weather. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the... So I'm not sure even 3 hr 50 m would do it?
- acchow 13y ago
  SF to tahoe (on I-80) never takes me 4 hours ;)
vicaya 13y ago
It's been done according to http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-dont-ignore-warnings http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-dont-ig... There is a supercharger at Folsom, so it's totally feasible. I'm just waiting for a Model X AWD :)

skaevola 13y ago

I don't think battery swapping is a great idea. The problem is that the battery is such a huge part of the car's cost. I can only guess, but I would estimate $15,000-20,000. Getting someone else's poorly treated battery could drastically effect the resale value of the car. The other company in the article tried to mitigate this problem by actually owning the batteries, but that isn't Tesla's model.

waster 13y ago
If I understand the idea correctly, you'd be swapping out your (depleted from a road trip) battery for someone else's (or Tesla's, if they shifted to a model where they provide some of the batteries at the swap-out stations), and then next time you wanted to swap again, you'd get another one. Doesn't seem to me to be a factor for resale. Seems like they're pitching it instead as a way to increase the range of a car while on the road, though I'm willing to say I've misunderstood based on my (twice) read of the article. If they are planning to release further detail Thursday, though, that'll presumably clarify.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - lifeformed 13y ago
    Well, presumably the swapping company would make sure the batteries are well maintained. If someone swaps out a damaged battery, the process should detect that and charge them extra, and not put the bad battery in the queue for swapping.
    - skaevola 13y ago
      That opens up a whole can of worms. How do you quantify the damage? If my battery is degraded 10% do I pay $15,000 * .1 = $1,500 just to get back on the highway? Like I said, this is easy if the customers don't own the batteries, but right now they do, and those batteries are very expensive. I think perfecting the whole supercharging system makes more sense.
      - waster 13y ago
        If I were Tesla, I'd do both.
        incompatible 13y ago

codex 13y ago

I wonder if this is motivated by ZEV credits; I think rapid refill zero emission vehicles qualify for a lot more credits--possibly even if no owners take advantage of the feature. So just having a few rapid recharge stations that nobody uses could be a huge financial windfall for Tesla, allowing them more profit on each car sold--again, even if owners never once swap a battery.

FriedPickles 13y ago
Source? My search was fruitless.
- codex 13y ago
  www.greencarcongress.com/2013/05/zev-20130502.html Looks liken California is thinking of closing this loophole; nothing a little lobbying can't fix.

DannoHung 13y ago

High overhead, but if it can be done quickly and for a not exorbitant price, probably a winning idea. I imagine they'd charge people a yearly service to be in such a program.

lingben 13y ago

wasn't this the premise of the Israeli startup, Better Place? which just went bankrupt?

softbuilder 13y ago
The article talks about that.
kalleboo 13y ago
A Better Place's problems were getting car manufacturers onboard, and building infrastructure. Tesla ARE a care manufacturer, and they're already building infrastructure (their charging stations)

mbenjaminsmith 13y ago

If we're going to be swapping things at charging stations, why not use a technology like this: http://www.phinergy.com/ http://www.phinergy.com/ Takes a refill of plain water every ~200 miles and a swapping of aluminum at larger intervals. Aluminum is common as is the recycling of it. It's also a lot easier to handle than battery packs I would imagine -- lighter, safer, etc. Not sure about the range but early press suggests it to be at least 1k miles between changes. I put around 4k miles on my car a year (much lower than average, I know). I take my car in at least twice a year for service so it would get half of them "for free". Even at 12k miles per year that's only once a month. If it could be done in 15 minutes (a number I just made up) that's not much of a PITA. I wonder what the cost would be vs gasoline vs the cost of buying a car packed with LIBs.

dram 13y ago
Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. Phinergy said they'll have a 1000-mile EV by 2017. Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-tesla-cars-use-metal-air-batteries http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/04/23/199248/will-future-t... But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high...
- mbenjaminsmith 13y ago
  > Tesla's filed eight patents for metal-air batteries. > Can't imagine a 30k Tesla with this technology. Sounds like Musk can imagine it. Don't know about anybody else but I'll side with Musk vs anonymous HN poster #5674. > But all I can really think about are electric supersonic VTOL jets. Which might crash if you fly too high... All jets crash if they fly too high. (Well, it's not necessary that they crash but they have a well defined operational ceiling.)
  - dram 13y ago
    Perhaps I am misreading your comment but "can't imagine" is a figure of speech. I meant I was excited for the possibility. And the last statement was just referencing my ignorance about metal-air batteries working in oxygen-limited environments.