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I think the author did have some interesting things to say. His idea of men going to extremes on either end of the productivity scale was interesting. His poi

I think the author did have some interesting things to say. His idea of men going to extremes on either end of the productivity scale was interesting. His points that men occupy the top rungs of society as well as are considered expendable are interesting as well. Completely disregarding centuries/millena worth of cultural, historical and legal issues seems a little intellectually dishonest, however. Women have had difficulty for centuries across many cultures in obtaining property rights: http://womenshistory.about.com/od/marriedwomensproperty/a/property_rights.htm http://womenshistory.about.com/od/marriedwomensproperty/a/pr... Women have had to fight to obtain the basic right to vote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage Women have also had to fight to obtain the right to higher education, work in certain categories of jobs, etc... Dismissing all the cultural, historical and legal evidence to the contrary, and chalking it all up to evolutionary pressures seems a little dishonest. It's hard to evolve aggressive women, when aggressive women are imprisoned or killed. You still the effects of that in some very conservative muslim countries. I imagine that would have some evolutionary pressure on culling certain aggressive genes in women. In fact, it seems dangerously close to, "well, men evolved to be stronger, therefore, only men should be able to be ['soldiers', 'policemen', 'construction workers', 'etc...'].

Alex3917 18y ago
I wouldn't describe that as intellectual dishonesty. He might be wrong, but he's not trying to trick you.
jibiki 18y ago
I don't quite understand what you are saying. What phenomenon are you trying to explain, and what is your explanation?
- iamelgringo 18y ago
  It sounds to me like he's trying to discount the perspective that "men have kept women down" by suggesting an alternative explanation, "It's just genetic selection. i.e. men are more aggressive and care about dominination, women are more likeable and care about having families". I think he is ignoring the fact that men have throughout centuries passed laws that did not allow women to own property, get an education, vote, walk outside their house unveiled etc... Maybe part of the reason that women didn't build boats and sail around the world was because women weren't allowed to own property in many areas of the world, or because women were prohibited from obtaining an education and learning astronomy. If you can't study astronomy, it's hard to sail around the world. If you can't study medicine, it's impossible to be a doctor or improve Obstetrical care. If you can't own property by yourself, it's hard to build a business. It's hard to be a political leader if you can't vote.
  - IsaacSchlueter 18y ago
    Isn't your response just whataboutery? I think part of the author's thesis is that misogyny is handled in numerous other analyses. However, even in situations where allegations of patriarchy are ludicrous, certain trends are still present. It is not necessary to catalog every true example of misogyny in order to argue against some allegations of oppression. Maybe part of the reason that women didn't build boats and sail around the world was because women weren't allowed to own property in many areas of the world, or because women were prohibited from obtaining an education and learning astronomy. Certainly, in some cases. But even in cultures where women are granted the same rights as men, certain lifestyles seem to be much more popular with men than with women; hence far more men among soldiers, death row inmates, and Fortune 500 CEOs. In cases where we notice more men than women reaping a specific reward, we ought to at least consider different preferences owing to biological/evolutionary origins. But I see what you're saying. I would have liked to hear some discussion of the blatant and real misogyny that exists in the world. In fact, I would be fascinated to see an analysis of the situations you bring up, in light of the observed differences in gender attitude and aptitude.
  - raleec 17y ago
    You've hit on the logical fallacy that everyone seems to gloss over, namely, Men and Women are not different species. Any trait selected for would manifest in both genders. What this would lend credence to, is the cultural meme concept.
banned_man_2_0 18y ago
Throughout most of human history, the powerful people have behaved in a way that, by our standards, would be considered repugnant toward those who are less powerful. Most of the powerful people, following the author's thesis, would be men. So the vast majority of women (along with a majority of men) are going to be beaten down by them. Women were denied the vote throughout much of Anerican history, but so were blacks and non-property-owning men. I think his point is that women haven't been relegated to second-class status in many cultures because of a deliberate conspiracy to oppress women per se, but because the powerful people usually oppress the less powerful, and men tend to reach the highest levels of power for individualized, non-conspirational reasons. No conspiracy or intentional patriarchy is needed.
Darc 18y ago
> In fact, it seems dangerously close to, "well, men evolved to be stronger, therefore, only men should be able to be ['soldiers', 'policemen', 'construction workers', 'etc...']. Funnily enough, everytime someone tries to say that male ascendancy in society isn't a conspiracy by evil men to put down women, there is always someone who construes this as a moral validation of male dominance, or even as an imperative for it. That cultural, historical and legal issues might have been side-products of gender differences rather than their cause seems to be unthinkable for the typical feminist kool-aid drinker. The feminist ideology requires us males to be villains, because otherwise there is no war (because males aren't fighting it, and probably never have), and they become obsolete. Which is of course exactly what they are. Gender-gap in pay, academic and economic achievements, or even domestic violence have little or no cultural basis nowadays, so feminists are about as useful as slavery abolitionists would be today in western societies.
- idiopathic 18y ago
  > "feminists are about as useful as slavery abolitionists would be today in western societies" In other words, very useful and laudable pursuits: http://www.antislavery.org http://www.antislavery.org The article is very good. Incomplete, but very good. Your response is disappointing because it dismisses the suffering of many people: women and slaves. Just because some university professor came up with a good explanation for the origin of suffering, it does not mean that the suffering is good, or that we should tolerate it.

Alex3917 18y ago

I wouldn't describe that as intellectual dishonesty. He might be wrong, but he's not trying to trick you.

jibiki 18y ago

I don't quite understand what you are saying. What phenomenon are you trying to explain, and what is your explanation?

iamelgringo 18y ago
It sounds to me like he's trying to discount the perspective that "men have kept women down" by suggesting an alternative explanation, "It's just genetic selection. i.e. men are more aggressive and care about dominination, women are more likeable and care about having families". I think he is ignoring the fact that men have throughout centuries passed laws that did not allow women to own property, get an education, vote, walk outside their house unveiled etc... Maybe part of the reason that women didn't build boats and sail around the world was because women weren't allowed to own property in many areas of the world, or because women were prohibited from obtaining an education and learning astronomy. If you can't study astronomy, it's hard to sail around the world. If you can't study medicine, it's impossible to be a doctor or improve Obstetrical care. If you can't own property by yourself, it's hard to build a business. It's hard to be a political leader if you can't vote.
- IsaacSchlueter 18y ago
  Isn't your response just whataboutery? I think part of the author's thesis is that misogyny is handled in numerous other analyses. However, even in situations where allegations of patriarchy are ludicrous, certain trends are still present. It is not necessary to catalog every true example of misogyny in order to argue against some allegations of oppression. Maybe part of the reason that women didn't build boats and sail around the world was because women weren't allowed to own property in many areas of the world, or because women were prohibited from obtaining an education and learning astronomy. Certainly, in some cases. But even in cultures where women are granted the same rights as men, certain lifestyles seem to be much more popular with men than with women; hence far more men among soldiers, death row inmates, and Fortune 500 CEOs. In cases where we notice more men than women reaping a specific reward, we ought to at least consider different preferences owing to biological/evolutionary origins. But I see what you're saying. I would have liked to hear some discussion of the blatant and real misogyny that exists in the world. In fact, I would be fascinated to see an analysis of the situations you bring up, in light of the observed differences in gender attitude and aptitude.
- raleec 17y ago
  You've hit on the logical fallacy that everyone seems to gloss over, namely, Men and Women are not different species. Any trait selected for would manifest in both genders. What this would lend credence to, is the cultural meme concept.

banned_man_2_0 18y ago

Throughout most of human history, the powerful people have behaved in a way that, by our standards, would be considered repugnant toward those who are less powerful. Most of the powerful people, following the author's thesis, would be men. So the vast majority of women (along with a majority of men) are going to be beaten down by them. Women were denied the vote throughout much of Anerican history, but so were blacks and non-property-owning men. I think his point is that women haven't been relegated to second-class status in many cultures because of a deliberate conspiracy to oppress women per se, but because the powerful people usually oppress the less powerful, and men tend to reach the highest levels of power for individualized, non-conspirational reasons. No conspiracy or intentional patriarchy is needed.

Darc 18y ago

> In fact, it seems dangerously close to, "well, men evolved to be stronger, therefore, only men should be able to be ['soldiers', 'policemen', 'construction workers', 'etc...']. Funnily enough, everytime someone tries to say that male ascendancy in society isn't a conspiracy by evil men to put down women, there is always someone who construes this as a moral validation of male dominance, or even as an imperative for it. That cultural, historical and legal issues might have been side-products of gender differences rather than their cause seems to be unthinkable for the typical feminist kool-aid drinker. The feminist ideology requires us males to be villains, because otherwise there is no war (because males aren't fighting it, and probably never have), and they become obsolete. Which is of course exactly what they are. Gender-gap in pay, academic and economic achievements, or even domestic violence have little or no cultural basis nowadays, so feminists are about as useful as slavery abolitionists would be today in western societies.

idiopathic 18y ago
> "feminists are about as useful as slavery abolitionists would be today in western societies" In other words, very useful and laudable pursuits: http://www.antislavery.org http://www.antislavery.org The article is very good. Incomplete, but very good. Your response is disappointing because it dismisses the suffering of many people: women and slaves. Just because some university professor came up with a good explanation for the origin of suffering, it does not mean that the suffering is good, or that we should tolerate it.