4 ms·

Snowden and the NSA reflect a millennial climate change

73 points by rfreytag 13y ago

codeulike 13y ago
This bit: Snowden himself is I think the most interesting part of this because he’s a so-called Millennial. His ethics and allegiances are not those of his father or grandfather and certainly not those of the politicians and intelligence leaders he’d love to bring down. So the old rules, old threats, and old reward structures don’t work with this guy, making him even more dangerous. I think that’s good. In fact I think it’s the system re-regulating itself. We created Edward Snowden by disappointing him so. Our leaders, representing the old culture even as they presented themselves as representing the new, gave him no morally acceptable way to be successful in his own culture. We made him do what he is doing now. And if you think that’s bullshit I suggest you think again because this guy has been very clear about his motivation. There's something in this. The old 'for king and country' type stuff isn't as strong as it used to be. The average person views "people in power" very differently to 50 years ago. We all have mixed feelings about power now.
- gcb0 13y ago
  We've seen this cycle all the time. New generation comes, brings down two generations worth of powerful influences. It's no coincidence that all the revolts in the world are happening somewhat in the same decade. Arab spring, Turkey, now Brazil... and I don't even follow the news.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    From what we have seen so far in the Arab spring the "progressive elements" are getting squeezed out by the reactionarys - Just like the Iranian Revolution. This is what the secular protestors are worried about in Turkey. Brazil is slightly different always wondered if the hardline clearance of the favellas for the world cup/Olympics would come back to bite them on the ass.
    - cinquemb 13y ago
      >From what we have seen so far in the Arab spring the "progressive elements" are getting squeezed out by the reactionarys And the profiteers in some cases[0]… but alas, this is nothing new… [0]: http://www.cfr.org/qatar/tiny-qatars-big-plans-may-change-mideast/p26143 http://www.cfr.org/qatar/tiny-qatars-big-plans-may-change-mi...
    - alexqgb 13y ago
      Judging from this photoset, it's biting them hard. http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/06/protests-spread-across-brazil/100536/ http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/06/protests-spread-a...
  - roc 13y ago
    The interesting part, from where I'm sitting, is that I don't think the younger generation will see any "error" in Snowden jetting to Hong Kong, nor in revealing information about NSA surveillance on foreign targets. I think they see "people who are online" as a sort of kindred/nation in a way the older generations reserved for countrymen or foreign adherents to their own religious faith. And I don't mean to say they lack national identity or anything; nor that it's an extreme identification. I just mean that it seems, to me, their outrage is more about being spied on on Facebook, rather than being spied on in America. So if China had to find out about the spying for Americans to find out, I don't think they're going to rank "China is not our great friend" as more important than "online spying is wrong" and be all that divided on the issue of whether Snowden did anything wrong.
- tswartz 13y ago
  That part rang true for me too. Completely agree that millenials are going to be disappointed with leaders representing the old culture.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    I am shocked shocked that the generation of 68 sold out to the man :-)
    - cinquemb 13y ago
      What about Binney and Drake? Sometimes I wonder if people get caught up so much in the current generation "heroes" and skip over that pretty much everyone else in that generation is still behind their desk greasing the gears in the machine…
squozzer 13y ago
"King and Country" meant something once, when patriotism was a two-way street.
- mhurron 13y ago
  When was patriotism ever a give and take? Patriotic duty has always been at the expense of the individual. "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die."
  - squozzer 13y ago
    Maybe, but I would say that civilization cannot stand on its' own, it will need defenders. And civilization has been good to most of us most of the time. But I agree with the gist of your statement -- people in positions of power (or in your example, a position of artistic authority) constantly try to alter the terms of civilization to their benefit.
CWuestefeld 13y ago
So the recent news is bad for the cloud but it’s also bad for the intelligence agencies, themselves, because they’ve been busted. Who benefits from that? The regular military Cringely, too, is getting trapped in a false choice fallacy. Of course, there's the debate that's already been going on about how much beneficial information really came out of these programs. But on top of that, he's assuming that if we want intelligence, then this is the way to accomplish it. But that's not even close to true. We could still use the established, Constitutionally-approved method of warrants; there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's not all. He's stuck in the modern era's shift away from HUMINT (human intelligence), focusing almost exclusively on SIGINT (signals intelligence). Sure, in the rest of the world it's clear that big data can yield lots of information. But again, babies and bathwater. It's not the only choice we've got, and despite the sexy allure of technology, history shows much greater returns from HUMINT. And HUMINT can't encroach civil liberties anything like the NSA programs, because their scale is inherently limited.
- munin 13y ago
  > history shows much greater returns from HUMINT. except that signals intelligence won the battle of the north atlantic and the battle of the pacific and secured an allied victory over the axis powers in the second world war.
  - CWuestefeld 13y ago
    Obviously you're right about WWII. However, it's my understanding that from the Cold War on, the story has been quite different.
  - CWuestefeld 13y ago
    But how much of that was due to HUMINT? The German plugboard-equipped Enigma became the Third Reich's principal crypto-system. It was reconstructed by the Polish General Staff's Cipher Bureau in December 1932—with the aid of French-supplied intelligence material that had been obtained from a German spy. [1] I guess we could go on and on over which was thus more important. But it must be acknowledged that, at least, HUMINT is extremely important, and can't be discounted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma

73 points by rfreytag 13y ago

This bit: Snowden himself is I think the most interesting part of this because he’s a so-called Millennial. His ethics and allegiances are not those of his father or grandfather and certainly not those of the politicians and intelligence leaders he’d love to bring down. So the old rules, old threats, and old reward structures don’t work with this guy, making him even more dangerous. I think that’s good. In fact I think it’s the system re-regulating itself. We created Edward Snowden by disappointing him so. Our leaders, representing the old culture even as they presented themselves as representing the new, gave him no morally acceptable way to be successful in his own culture. We made him do what he is doing now. And if you think that’s bullshit I suggest you think again because this guy has been very clear about his motivation. There's something in this. The old 'for king and country' type stuff isn't as strong as it used to be. The average person views "people in power" very differently to 50 years ago. We all have mixed feelings about power now.

gcb0 13y ago
We've seen this cycle all the time. New generation comes, brings down two generations worth of powerful influences. It's no coincidence that all the revolts in the world are happening somewhat in the same decade. Arab spring, Turkey, now Brazil... and I don't even follow the news.
- walshemj 13y ago
  From what we have seen so far in the Arab spring the "progressive elements" are getting squeezed out by the reactionarys - Just like the Iranian Revolution. This is what the secular protestors are worried about in Turkey. Brazil is slightly different always wondered if the hardline clearance of the favellas for the world cup/Olympics would come back to bite them on the ass.
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    >From what we have seen so far in the Arab spring the "progressive elements" are getting squeezed out by the reactionarys And the profiteers in some cases[0]… but alas, this is nothing new… [0]: http://www.cfr.org/qatar/tiny-qatars-big-plans-may-change-mideast/p26143 http://www.cfr.org/qatar/tiny-qatars-big-plans-may-change-mi...
  - alexqgb 13y ago
    Judging from this photoset, it's biting them hard. http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/06/protests-spread-across-brazil/100536/ http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/06/protests-spread-a...
- roc 13y ago
  The interesting part, from where I'm sitting, is that I don't think the younger generation will see any "error" in Snowden jetting to Hong Kong, nor in revealing information about NSA surveillance on foreign targets. I think they see "people who are online" as a sort of kindred/nation in a way the older generations reserved for countrymen or foreign adherents to their own religious faith. And I don't mean to say they lack national identity or anything; nor that it's an extreme identification. I just mean that it seems, to me, their outrage is more about being spied on on Facebook, rather than being spied on in America. So if China had to find out about the spying for Americans to find out, I don't think they're going to rank "China is not our great friend" as more important than "online spying is wrong" and be all that divided on the issue of whether Snowden did anything wrong.
tswartz 13y ago
That part rang true for me too. Completely agree that millenials are going to be disappointed with leaders representing the old culture.
- walshemj 13y ago
  I am shocked shocked that the generation of 68 sold out to the man :-)
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    What about Binney and Drake? Sometimes I wonder if people get caught up so much in the current generation "heroes" and skip over that pretty much everyone else in that generation is still behind their desk greasing the gears in the machine…

squozzer 13y ago

"King and Country" meant something once, when patriotism was a two-way street.

mhurron 13y ago
When was patriotism ever a give and take? Patriotic duty has always been at the expense of the individual. "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die."
- squozzer 13y ago
  Maybe, but I would say that civilization cannot stand on its' own, it will need defenders. And civilization has been good to most of us most of the time. But I agree with the gist of your statement -- people in positions of power (or in your example, a position of artistic authority) constantly try to alter the terms of civilization to their benefit.

CWuestefeld 13y ago

So the recent news is bad for the cloud but it’s also bad for the intelligence agencies, themselves, because they’ve been busted. Who benefits from that? The regular military Cringely, too, is getting trapped in a false choice fallacy. Of course, there's the debate that's already been going on about how much beneficial information really came out of these programs. But on top of that, he's assuming that if we want intelligence, then this is the way to accomplish it. But that's not even close to true. We could still use the established, Constitutionally-approved method of warrants; there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's not all. He's stuck in the modern era's shift away from HUMINT (human intelligence), focusing almost exclusively on SIGINT (signals intelligence). Sure, in the rest of the world it's clear that big data can yield lots of information. But again, babies and bathwater. It's not the only choice we've got, and despite the sexy allure of technology, history shows much greater returns from HUMINT. And HUMINT can't encroach civil liberties anything like the NSA programs, because their scale is inherently limited.

munin 13y ago
> history shows much greater returns from HUMINT. except that signals intelligence won the battle of the north atlantic and the battle of the pacific and secured an allied victory over the axis powers in the second world war.
- CWuestefeld 13y ago
  Obviously you're right about WWII. However, it's my understanding that from the Cold War on, the story has been quite different.
- CWuestefeld 13y ago
  But how much of that was due to HUMINT? The German plugboard-equipped Enigma became the Third Reich's principal crypto-system. It was reconstructed by the Polish General Staff's Cipher Bureau in December 1932—with the aid of French-supplied intelligence material that had been obtained from a German spy. [1] I guess we could go on and on over which was thus more important. But it must be acknowledged that, at least, HUMINT is extremely important, and can't be discounted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma