5 ms·

Records are annoying, but can be worked around. The compiler is incredibly slow and uses tons of RAM (I need 2GB to compile my simple little web app for exampl

Records are annoying, but can be worked around. The compiler is incredibly slow and uses tons of RAM (I need 2GB to compile my simple little web app for example). The slow compile times can start to really kill productivity on large projects. The web frameworks are all pretty focused on trying to reproduce industry worst practices rather than doing things right, so if you are doing web development and you don't want your app to be a mess, you are kinda on your own. That's pretty much it. edit: to clarify on the web thing, when I say "on your own" I mean you won't be able to get much from existing tutorials and examples since you will want to do everything differently. Not that you will have to write your own framework.

mightybyte 13y ago
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on web development. Would love to chat on IRC...or maybe drop me an email if you're inclined.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  I'd be interested in hearing, too, so please make it public if you're comfortable with that (and link it here, if the conversation isn't held here).
- dustingetz 13y ago
  +1, would be awesome if you made this happen, please post the log to r/haskell
Ixiaus 13y ago
The only Haskell web application framework I feel is well-designed is Snapframework. My experiences with Yesod echo your sentiment and Happstack doesn't quite cut it. Scotty is too low-level (from my cursory investigation). The compiler is slow, yes, but it is also doing a lot of work for you; the benefits of using Haskell outweigh the time to compile, for me personally.
- papsosouid 13y ago
  It seems like snap is headed in the yesod direction. By that I mean the "faithfully replicate the mistakes of php/mysql worst practices as interpreted by rails", not the "conflate type safety with DSLs". Happstack doesn't appear to be overly damaged by phpisms, but happstack-foundation isn't useful for a lot of people because it uses acid-state for storage. Also, HSP is terrible and using it should be a criminal offence. So you basically have to build your own collection of stuff as you go on top of snap or happstack-server and the various glue packages for happstack. I don't buy the "but the compiler is working hard" excuses for ghc's horrible performance. Ocaml is a similar language, and it compiles similar projects in 1/10th the time, and in 1/20th the RAM. It is a huge issue on large projects, waiting 30 seconds for a single line change to compile is brutal, and that 30 seconds ends up being 5 minutes because you get distracted while waiting.
  - mightybyte 13y ago
    > faithfully replicate the mistakes of php/mysql worst practices as interpreted by rails I assume you're talking about things like snap-extras and restful-snap. Those libraries are not a part of the Snap Framework. They are simply libraries that I and my coworkers are using to help us ship apps more quickly. We put them on hackage because we thought others might be able to benefit from them. They are still very young and it is uncertain what direction they will finally take. The core framework still consists of just snap-core, snap-server, heist, and snap. If you as a Snap user still think this is a sign that the framework is going in the wrong direction, we'd love to get your input and involvement.
    - chrisdone 13y ago
      There's also snap-app http://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-app http://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-app which I'm using on hpaste, ircbrowse and haskellnews =p Which sort of backs up his point about making your own utility libraries on top of snap. Although this was implemented for hpaste years ago before snap got all that weird snaplet lens stuff, and I copy-pasted it for ircbrowse and ended up librifying it so I could cabal install it on my different projects.

mightybyte 13y ago

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on web development. Would love to chat on IRC...or maybe drop me an email if you're inclined.

dllthomas 13y ago
I'd be interested in hearing, too, so please make it public if you're comfortable with that (and link it here, if the conversation isn't held here).
dustingetz 13y ago
+1, would be awesome if you made this happen, please post the log to r/haskell

Ixiaus 13y ago

The only Haskell web application framework I feel is well-designed is Snapframework. My experiences with Yesod echo your sentiment and Happstack doesn't quite cut it. Scotty is too low-level (from my cursory investigation). The compiler is slow, yes, but it is also doing a lot of work for you; the benefits of using Haskell outweigh the time to compile, for me personally.

papsosouid 13y ago
It seems like snap is headed in the yesod direction. By that I mean the "faithfully replicate the mistakes of php/mysql worst practices as interpreted by rails", not the "conflate type safety with DSLs". Happstack doesn't appear to be overly damaged by phpisms, but happstack-foundation isn't useful for a lot of people because it uses acid-state for storage. Also, HSP is terrible and using it should be a criminal offence. So you basically have to build your own collection of stuff as you go on top of snap or happstack-server and the various glue packages for happstack. I don't buy the "but the compiler is working hard" excuses for ghc's horrible performance. Ocaml is a similar language, and it compiles similar projects in 1/10th the time, and in 1/20th the RAM. It is a huge issue on large projects, waiting 30 seconds for a single line change to compile is brutal, and that 30 seconds ends up being 5 minutes because you get distracted while waiting.
- mightybyte 13y ago
  > faithfully replicate the mistakes of php/mysql worst practices as interpreted by rails I assume you're talking about things like snap-extras and restful-snap. Those libraries are not a part of the Snap Framework. They are simply libraries that I and my coworkers are using to help us ship apps more quickly. We put them on hackage because we thought others might be able to benefit from them. They are still very young and it is uncertain what direction they will finally take. The core framework still consists of just snap-core, snap-server, heist, and snap. If you as a Snap user still think this is a sign that the framework is going in the wrong direction, we'd love to get your input and involvement.
  - chrisdone 13y ago
    There's also snap-app http://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-app http://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap-app which I'm using on hpaste, ircbrowse and haskellnews =p Which sort of backs up his point about making your own utility libraries on top of snap. Although this was implemented for hpaste years ago before snap got all that weird snaplet lens stuff, and I copy-pasted it for ircbrowse and ended up librifying it so I could cabal install it on my different projects.