9 ms·

The Mac Pro from an audio pros perspective

69 points by shawndumas 13y ago

zdw 13y ago
The new Mac Pro forces all device makers to use interfaces that are compatible with the entire range of Apple hardware. There's no "oh, we only have a card, you have to have a machine with slots" anymore - every machine, from the lowliest Mac Minis and MacBooks to the highest end Mac Pro will be able to use the same peripherals. I think this is the end goal. Apple's computers will scale along the CPU and GPU performance and memory size axes, with everything else being an peripheral you can theoretically move to any computer you own. It's a bold move.
- masklinn 13y ago
  That is an extremely interesting take which I hadn't considered, especially when considering rMBPs have two TB ports.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  Is thunderbolt fast enough to drive a high end GPU?
  - wmf 13y ago
    I don't think external GPUs are part of Apple's plan. The GPU comes inside the Mac, and if you want to upgrade it you can buy a new Mac.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      That would seem very expensive.
      - msoad 13y ago
        External GPUs are not cheap too!
      - hellrich 13y ago
        Perfect(for Apple)!
      - bradleyland 13y ago
        Component upgrade costs are always cheaper than replacing the entire system, but what is the cost delta between replacing two GPUs and a CPU versus replacing the system. We don't know the cost for the Mac Pro yet, but given it's size and the limited number of components that are internal, it would appear to be optimized for system-level replacement. What Apple has designed could be described as a laptop for your desk. Sales of systems where the CPU/GPU are upgradable are plummeting. The market is driving computers in this direction.
        jiggy2011 13y ago
        That seems a shame , upgradeability has always let me have a relatively high performance system without breaking the bank. I don't necessarily want a top end CPU, but I like a decent GPU and a lot of memory. Not to mention the environmental factors.
        bradleyland 13y ago
        I empathize, but the Mac Pro hasn't really been an option for anyone not looking to break the bank. If you're in to building your own systems, there are always other options: OS X system guides - http://www.tonymacx86.com/ http://www.tonymacx86.com/
    - fuzzywalrus 13y ago
      OS X interestingly forgoes external graphics PCIe support (for now) with Thunderbolt. Windows supports it. Also Windows, since Windows 7 supports 24+ bit panels (think Dell Ultrasharp U2711), OS X is still stuck on 16.7 million. Lately, I haven't felt like Apple has my back for pro-A/V :/
  - calinet6 13y ago
    It's basically a PCIe x4 interface, so it's about 1/4 the bandwidth of most high-end video cards, and you should be able to make an external enclosure for them. So yes, it's possible to add one, it just won't be quite as fast. More likely, you've got 2 upgradeable graphics cards in there, already running in an SLI configuration. It should be entirely upgradeable.
    - jewel 13y ago
      It's hard to tell from the pictures, but since the video cards share the same thermal core, I'm not sure they are going to be easy to upgrade anymore.
      - leoc 13y ago
        Yes. You'd have to remove the stock heatsink and fans from the card you were putting in, which would surely invalidate its warranty straight away. Then you'd have to somehow mate it with the heatsink bases on that side of the Mac Pro's thermal core, not something that's not likely to be straightforward if the replacement card's make and model don't closely match that of the stock card it's replacing. And that's just the beginning of the possible problems.
    - ebbv 13y ago
      Every indication seems to be the cards inside the Mac Pro are not upgradeable.
  - lifeformed 13y ago
    Fast external GPUs are my dream. I can buy a convenient sized laptop with excellent specs in every category except for GPU. As soon as I want a good GPU, the laptop has to become a 10lb monster. I want to just dock it at my home desk with the GPU and convert my laptop into essentially a desktop workstation. Then I can undock it and take it out to the coffeeshop when I want to work outside. Maybe the external GPU is tiny too, and I can throw that in my backpack with it when I want to do gamedev work outside the house.
- Southamptondave 13y ago
  "It became necessary to destroy the Mac Pro to save it"
- cwisecarver 13y ago
  This has always been their plan. They tried this with the original Macintosh and it's successors. Up until now the PC market was growing too fast for them to get away with it. Now with the "Post-PC era" they're giving it another shot. I think it's an interesting idea, each external peripheral does one thing well. It reflects their current advertising and their product lines.
- kevincennis 13y ago
  +1 for the extinction of cards and slots. One of the most nerve-wracking moments of my (former) life as a recording engineer was installing a brand new Pro Tools card into a brand new Mac Pro at Aereosmith's studio. For whatever reason, the fit was way tighter than normal and I literally had to put some of my body weight over the thing to get it to slide in. All the while, just wondering how I was going to explain to Joe Perry that I had snapped a $6k Pro Tools card in half. Luckily, I didn't have to.
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Combining voices with the person in this thread asking about external GPUs, I long for the day when we can have powerful Thunderbolt GPUs. High-end video cards are becoming ever larger with each generation, to the point where I had to upgrade my case and motherboard when I upgraded my video card last time. I just couldn't fit the card in the case, and the card suddenly overlapped parts on the motherboard that weren't a problem previously. The problem of hard drives taking up too much room in a case is solved. The problem of expansion cards taking up too much room in a case is solved. If we could get that to video cards as well, we can throw the whole concept of massive cases in traditional form factors being required for high end workstations right out the window.
    - fuzzywalrus 13y ago
      The problem with Thunderbolt is a bandwidth one and Apple's support: PCIe 16x is 128 gbps bi-directional, Thunderbolt 2 is 20 gbps. Putting it just over 4x PCIe. Currently Windows supports graphics cards via Thunderbolt but OS X doesn't. There's also no guarantee Apple support drivers for external PCIe graphics chipsets. Maybe in 3 years Thunderbolt 3 will be 128 gbps but PCIe will hit its next iteration putting it that much further beyond. Thunderbolt is awesome as an I/O setup but for graphically minded individuals, its still not as amazing as one might hope.
      - wtallis 13y ago
        > Currently Windows supports graphics cards via Thunderbolt but OS X doesn't. Citation? From a software perspective, Thunderbolt is just hotpluggable PCIe. There's not much that can be done to prevent compatibility with a GPU connected via Thunderbolt, especially when the OS already supports switchable graphics. From what I've read, the biggest challenge to using an external GPU enclosure with a Mac is getting a GPU that OS X has drivers for, not anything Thunderbolt-related.
- dasmoth 13y ago
  The scaling across the range would be much smoother if they released a headless mid-range machine, rather than relying entirely on iMacs (and laptops) to fill the gap between the Mini and the Pro. They seem quite actively disinterested in building such a machine, though.
  - cstejerean 13y ago
    A laptop in clamshell mode is a good substitute for a headless mid-range machine. Combine it with a BookArc stand to avoid wasting desk space and it's hard to beat.
    - AlexanderDhoore 13y ago
      Isn't that how Reddit started? Hosted on a laptop. I read that somewhere. They had to keep it around to restart the server every few hours.
      - pak 13y ago
        Best part about hosting on a headless laptop: built-in UPS in case you have a power dip or somebody knocks the power strip out. I've wondered: if computer makers sold laptops with lights-out-management and detachable displays, would people would repurpose them into makeshift mobile servers and design entire server farms around them, like they have with the Mac Mini. You could have a work/coding environment where if somebody needs to take home the dev server to hack on it overnight, they pull it out of the rack, slap on a display, use it any other laptop, and bring it back in the morning to plug back in.
    - dasmoth 13y ago
      Depends what you're looking for GPU-wise (which is also one of the frustrations of the iMac range). Also, slower CPUs and memory limited to 16Gb. In many respects, the new Mac Pro is exactly the all-round machine (development, scientific computing, plus the odd game) I've been waiting for. If it shows up with a reasonable low-end version, I'd buy it in a flash (or even sooner, given an Nvidia GPU option). But Apple have been very wary about releasing mid-range machines which might cannibalise iMac sales, so I'm not holding my breath.
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  > It's a bold move. No. It's "letting people use their device in a non-retarded way".
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dasil003 13y ago
The author hits the nail right on the head here. The new Mac Pro is making a bold bet on the future: that given sufficient bandwidth, the benefits of external expansion ultimately outweigh the benefits of packing them into a tower. This is going to cause tremendous short-term pain and the fiercest hand-wringing the tech world has seen since the release of FCP X, but in the long term I think Apple made the right bet and will come out ahead.
- IverNewson 13y ago
  It's not an either/or proposition; Why couldn't Apple have provided a tower that had both internal and external expansion? Because new Mac Pro 'needs' to be 1/8th the volume of the old Mac Pro?
  - nicholassmith 13y ago
    The same argument can be made for many of Apple product decisions, why no Blu-Ray? Why no SuperDrive in the MBPr? The simple answer being as always, Apple doesn't think it's necessary. They've clearly designed it for a very specific purpose, I'm interested in seeing what the futures bodes for it.
  - stinos 13y ago
    There's enough people out there that will let the appearance playe a major part in their decision of whether or not to buy it. So yes, from Apple's POV it needs to be smaller and different looking. It's all about pleasing the customers, innit?
  - evilduck 13y ago
    That wouldn't put any pressure on 3rd parties to manufacture external peripherals (which is hypothetically the goal).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - masklinn 13y ago
    > Why couldn't Apple have provided a tower that had both internal and external expansion? The lack of internal expansion means high-end mac pro peripherals have to be TB, which may finally kickstart the the TB ecosystem. And when that happens, these peripherals are compatible with all machines from the mini and air to rMBP and mac pro.
Apreche 13y ago
This is one thing I never really understood. Apple really cares a lot about aesthetics. In the store their devices all look fantastic standing alone surrounded by white/black. But when you see an Apple device in the real world, it looks like crap. Why? Because it's tangled up in this octopus of cables and external doodads. In my office I have a Lenovo X220, and everyone else has Macs, mostly Macbooks. I have a docking station, so all my cables other than mouse and keyboard are behind my desk out of sight and mind. The co-worker with the iMac has the same situation. Everyone else has a Macbook Pro or Air. The entire left sides of their desk are a mess of cables spewing out the side of the Macbooks. It ruins everything. Hiding everything inside of the beautiful box keeps it pretty, so I've never really understood why Apple loves external devices so much more than internal.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  I think that's a problem that's rather unique to our field. Most people I know who have MacBooks don't have them in a "docked" configuration ever. It sits on their desk where the most that comes out of them is the power adapter and a USB cable. I hear ya though, my Macbook Pro doubles as my home development machine, so when I'm "docked" it's just a morass of cables. It really would be nice if Apple lived up to the "Pro" moniker and gave us a reasonable dock. I did order a Henge dock a while back, maybe I should actually unpack it and set it up...
  - cicloid 13y ago
    The dock is a Thunderbolt Display
  - dan_b 13y ago
    You really should, I've got one at my office and one at home.
- epistasis 13y ago
  > Hiding everything inside of the beautiful box keeps it pretty, so I've never really understood why Apple loves external devices so much more than internal. If you mean this criticism in regards to the Mac Pro, expansion cards usually have cables coming out of them as well, so the Mac Pro is no different from traditional desktops in that regard. SSD on PCI is obviously an exception here, but that's a relative newcomer. As far as laptop computers, the reason you have a dock and others don't is that you purchased a dock, and the others didn't. So perhaps the Apple users you know care less about aesthetics than you think they do.
JonnieCache 13y ago
As a side point, those RME audio interfaces mentioned in the article are utterly fantastic. I've recently acquired an older firewire one, and it makes everything else in its pricerange look like a bad joke. They are the only people developing custom USB/firewire controllers, everyone else just sticks a TI chipset in there, wraps the OEM drivers and goes to lunch. Not the plucky germans at RME. If you need to get audio in or out of your computer, you should settle for nothing less.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mhd 13y ago
This really reminds me of the original iMac. When it came out, USB devices were pretty rare, but this got better pretty quickly, especially regarding printers. Firewire wasn't as successful. Although, if I understand correctly, you can just hook up an external PCI-express bay via thunderbolt, so you don't really need special hardware (like e.g. USB audio devices). So apart from the usual series of external hard drives, you'll probably find a few expansion bays docket to your central ash tray. But given the additional power bricks, wires and boxes you need for this, it seems they're optimizing for the non-extended situation and/or want to give their other computers equal footing.
ripperdoc 13y ago
I think the key point brought up here is that there is greater convenience in external accessories once there is more than one computing device to use them with - and I'd say that's a much more common scenario than it used to be. My suggestion to Apple (or 3PP), would be to make a stackable accessory form factor (along the lines of http://www.123macmini.com/accessories/guide/enclosures.html http://www.123macmini.com/accessories/guide/enclosures.html) with built-in Thunderbolt connectors, or at least cable guides. They could be styled in the same style as the Mac Pro. Imagine just slotting on another level of your little accessory tower, with a single Thunderbolt going to the "capital ship".
mono 13y ago
"It looks like a Dyson vacuum cleaner someone lifted from the maintenance closet on the Death Star."
- leoc 13y ago
  Shamelessly quoting myself: "The thing looks genuinely ugly with the outer casing off: like computer junk from the late '90s, with a touch of Jawa Quality Spares." http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MspVCc0_R3g#t=105s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Msp... By the way, I just realised what it is that the base of the new Mac Pro was reminding me of: it's the old G4 iMac, of course http://macspeedzone.com/images/reviews/machines/desktop/imac/4_02/close/side_right.jpg http://macspeedzone.com/images/reviews/machines/desktop/imac... .
calinet6 13y ago
Audio pros want everything outside the box anyway: interference from the power supply, motherboard, etc are unacceptable. External peripherals are the norm. I don't see any problem with this whatsoever.
- WalterSear 13y ago
  External peripherals bring in the delights of ground loops wall warts and dodgey inputs. Not to mention cables galore. What is clear from this latest design is that Apple doesn't see audio production as a market worth considering when designing stuff.
  - wtallis 13y ago
    Thunderbolt provides 10W of power, so a lot of devices only need one cable, and won't have any higher chance of ground loops than an internal part. Also, ground loops are much less of a problem across digital connections like TB or FireWire - it's when you're connecting two pieces of equipment with an analog audio cable that ground loops get annoying.
  - calinet6 13y ago
    That's ridiculous. The power from the wall has the potential to be much cleaner and more predictable than that from a PC power supply. If that's the issue, then the device's power supply is designed poorly. I think there will be (and frankly are) very high-quality external interfaces that have none of these issues, and avoid larger internal issues. Your argument is a non-issue, and your conclusion is an overreaction.
    - prodigal_erik 13y ago
      The power from the wall is only as clean as permitted by the cheapest, most worn out hair dryer or air conditioner in your building (or maybe neighborhood). PC power supplies typically aren't great but they have to do some filtering for the machine to run at all.
stephen_g 13y ago
The loss of the hard drive bays really doesn't worry me (is anyone doing serious work really not working off a big RAID or a SAN?), and my audio interfaces have been external for years... The only thing I might want is a PCI-Express slot for a RED ROCKET card (it's a hardware decoder for 4K+ video from RED cameras) but I've never really felt the urge to splurge for one of those - both Final Cut Pro X and Premiere Pro are good enough at decoding it with the CPU and GPU even on my MacBook Pro so the Mac Pro should have no problems with it... The only time I feel it is rendering (you can work in 1/4 res [a bit more than 1080p] but for finishing you want full quality even if you're downscaling). And if I did want one, there are a number of adaptors that work with them...
- jdboyd 13y ago
  A Red Rocket card can be attached to your thunderbolt workstation video this http://www.mlogic.com/products/mlink-r http://www.mlogic.com/products/mlink-r which is currently listed at $599. I don't know that TB1 will have enough bandwidth for the new Red Rocket X card, and I'm not yet aware of any TB2 -> PCIe chassis for sale.
pmarin 13y ago
I am curious about if the new Mac Pro will promote the build of high end Hackintoshes to fill the gap left by Apple in their product line.

69 points by shawndumas 13y ago

zdw 13y ago

The new Mac Pro forces all device makers to use interfaces that are compatible with the entire range of Apple hardware. There's no "oh, we only have a card, you have to have a machine with slots" anymore - every machine, from the lowliest Mac Minis and MacBooks to the highest end Mac Pro will be able to use the same peripherals. I think this is the end goal. Apple's computers will scale along the CPU and GPU performance and memory size axes, with everything else being an peripheral you can theoretically move to any computer you own. It's a bold move.

masklinn 13y ago
That is an extremely interesting take which I hadn't considered, especially when considering rMBPs have two TB ports.
jiggy2011 13y ago
Is thunderbolt fast enough to drive a high end GPU?
- wmf 13y ago
  I don't think external GPUs are part of Apple's plan. The GPU comes inside the Mac, and if you want to upgrade it you can buy a new Mac.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    That would seem very expensive.
    - msoad 13y ago
      External GPUs are not cheap too!
    - hellrich 13y ago
      Perfect(for Apple)!
    - bradleyland 13y ago
      Component upgrade costs are always cheaper than replacing the entire system, but what is the cost delta between replacing two GPUs and a CPU versus replacing the system. We don't know the cost for the Mac Pro yet, but given it's size and the limited number of components that are internal, it would appear to be optimized for system-level replacement. What Apple has designed could be described as a laptop for your desk. Sales of systems where the CPU/GPU are upgradable are plummeting. The market is driving computers in this direction.
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        That seems a shame , upgradeability has always let me have a relatively high performance system without breaking the bank. I don't necessarily want a top end CPU, but I like a decent GPU and a lot of memory. Not to mention the environmental factors.
        bradleyland 13y ago
        I empathize, but the Mac Pro hasn't really been an option for anyone not looking to break the bank. If you're in to building your own systems, there are always other options: OS X system guides - http://www.tonymacx86.com/ http://www.tonymacx86.com/
  - fuzzywalrus 13y ago
    OS X interestingly forgoes external graphics PCIe support (for now) with Thunderbolt. Windows supports it. Also Windows, since Windows 7 supports 24+ bit panels (think Dell Ultrasharp U2711), OS X is still stuck on 16.7 million. Lately, I haven't felt like Apple has my back for pro-A/V :/
- calinet6 13y ago
  It's basically a PCIe x4 interface, so it's about 1/4 the bandwidth of most high-end video cards, and you should be able to make an external enclosure for them. So yes, it's possible to add one, it just won't be quite as fast. More likely, you've got 2 upgradeable graphics cards in there, already running in an SLI configuration. It should be entirely upgradeable.
  - jewel 13y ago
    It's hard to tell from the pictures, but since the video cards share the same thermal core, I'm not sure they are going to be easy to upgrade anymore.
    - leoc 13y ago
      Yes. You'd have to remove the stock heatsink and fans from the card you were putting in, which would surely invalidate its warranty straight away. Then you'd have to somehow mate it with the heatsink bases on that side of the Mac Pro's thermal core, not something that's not likely to be straightforward if the replacement card's make and model don't closely match that of the stock card it's replacing. And that's just the beginning of the possible problems.
  - ebbv 13y ago
    Every indication seems to be the cards inside the Mac Pro are not upgradeable.
- lifeformed 13y ago
  Fast external GPUs are my dream. I can buy a convenient sized laptop with excellent specs in every category except for GPU. As soon as I want a good GPU, the laptop has to become a 10lb monster. I want to just dock it at my home desk with the GPU and convert my laptop into essentially a desktop workstation. Then I can undock it and take it out to the coffeeshop when I want to work outside. Maybe the external GPU is tiny too, and I can throw that in my backpack with it when I want to do gamedev work outside the house.
Southamptondave 13y ago
"It became necessary to destroy the Mac Pro to save it"
cwisecarver 13y ago
This has always been their plan. They tried this with the original Macintosh and it's successors. Up until now the PC market was growing too fast for them to get away with it. Now with the "Post-PC era" they're giving it another shot. I think it's an interesting idea, each external peripheral does one thing well. It reflects their current advertising and their product lines.
kevincennis 13y ago
+1 for the extinction of cards and slots. One of the most nerve-wracking moments of my (former) life as a recording engineer was installing a brand new Pro Tools card into a brand new Mac Pro at Aereosmith's studio. For whatever reason, the fit was way tighter than normal and I literally had to put some of my body weight over the thing to get it to slide in. All the while, just wondering how I was going to explain to Joe Perry that I had snapped a $6k Pro Tools card in half. Luckily, I didn't have to.
- freehunter 13y ago
  Combining voices with the person in this thread asking about external GPUs, I long for the day when we can have powerful Thunderbolt GPUs. High-end video cards are becoming ever larger with each generation, to the point where I had to upgrade my case and motherboard when I upgraded my video card last time. I just couldn't fit the card in the case, and the card suddenly overlapped parts on the motherboard that weren't a problem previously. The problem of hard drives taking up too much room in a case is solved. The problem of expansion cards taking up too much room in a case is solved. If we could get that to video cards as well, we can throw the whole concept of massive cases in traditional form factors being required for high end workstations right out the window.
  - fuzzywalrus 13y ago
    The problem with Thunderbolt is a bandwidth one and Apple's support: PCIe 16x is 128 gbps bi-directional, Thunderbolt 2 is 20 gbps. Putting it just over 4x PCIe. Currently Windows supports graphics cards via Thunderbolt but OS X doesn't. There's also no guarantee Apple support drivers for external PCIe graphics chipsets. Maybe in 3 years Thunderbolt 3 will be 128 gbps but PCIe will hit its next iteration putting it that much further beyond. Thunderbolt is awesome as an I/O setup but for graphically minded individuals, its still not as amazing as one might hope.
    - wtallis 13y ago
      > Currently Windows supports graphics cards via Thunderbolt but OS X doesn't. Citation? From a software perspective, Thunderbolt is just hotpluggable PCIe. There's not much that can be done to prevent compatibility with a GPU connected via Thunderbolt, especially when the OS already supports switchable graphics. From what I've read, the biggest challenge to using an external GPU enclosure with a Mac is getting a GPU that OS X has drivers for, not anything Thunderbolt-related.
dasmoth 13y ago
The scaling across the range would be much smoother if they released a headless mid-range machine, rather than relying entirely on iMacs (and laptops) to fill the gap between the Mini and the Pro. They seem quite actively disinterested in building such a machine, though.
- cstejerean 13y ago
  A laptop in clamshell mode is a good substitute for a headless mid-range machine. Combine it with a BookArc stand to avoid wasting desk space and it's hard to beat.
  - AlexanderDhoore 13y ago
    Isn't that how Reddit started? Hosted on a laptop. I read that somewhere. They had to keep it around to restart the server every few hours.
    - pak 13y ago
      Best part about hosting on a headless laptop: built-in UPS in case you have a power dip or somebody knocks the power strip out. I've wondered: if computer makers sold laptops with lights-out-management and detachable displays, would people would repurpose them into makeshift mobile servers and design entire server farms around them, like they have with the Mac Mini. You could have a work/coding environment where if somebody needs to take home the dev server to hack on it overnight, they pull it out of the rack, slap on a display, use it any other laptop, and bring it back in the morning to plug back in.
  - dasmoth 13y ago
    Depends what you're looking for GPU-wise (which is also one of the frustrations of the iMac range). Also, slower CPUs and memory limited to 16Gb. In many respects, the new Mac Pro is exactly the all-round machine (development, scientific computing, plus the odd game) I've been waiting for. If it shows up with a reasonable low-end version, I'd buy it in a flash (or even sooner, given an Nvidia GPU option). But Apple have been very wary about releasing mid-range machines which might cannibalise iMac sales, so I'm not holding my breath.
_pmf_ 13y ago
> It's a bold move. No. It's "letting people use their device in a non-retarded way".

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

dasil003 13y ago

The author hits the nail right on the head here. The new Mac Pro is making a bold bet on the future: that given sufficient bandwidth, the benefits of external expansion ultimately outweigh the benefits of packing them into a tower. This is going to cause tremendous short-term pain and the fiercest hand-wringing the tech world has seen since the release of FCP X, but in the long term I think Apple made the right bet and will come out ahead.

IverNewson 13y ago
It's not an either/or proposition; Why couldn't Apple have provided a tower that had both internal and external expansion? Because new Mac Pro 'needs' to be 1/8th the volume of the old Mac Pro?
- nicholassmith 13y ago
  The same argument can be made for many of Apple product decisions, why no Blu-Ray? Why no SuperDrive in the MBPr? The simple answer being as always, Apple doesn't think it's necessary. They've clearly designed it for a very specific purpose, I'm interested in seeing what the futures bodes for it.
- stinos 13y ago
  There's enough people out there that will let the appearance playe a major part in their decision of whether or not to buy it. So yes, from Apple's POV it needs to be smaller and different looking. It's all about pleasing the customers, innit?
- evilduck 13y ago
  That wouldn't put any pressure on 3rd parties to manufacture external peripherals (which is hypothetically the goal).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- masklinn 13y ago
  > Why couldn't Apple have provided a tower that had both internal and external expansion? The lack of internal expansion means high-end mac pro peripherals have to be TB, which may finally kickstart the the TB ecosystem. And when that happens, these peripherals are compatible with all machines from the mini and air to rMBP and mac pro.

Apreche 13y ago

This is one thing I never really understood. Apple really cares a lot about aesthetics. In the store their devices all look fantastic standing alone surrounded by white/black. But when you see an Apple device in the real world, it looks like crap. Why? Because it's tangled up in this octopus of cables and external doodads. In my office I have a Lenovo X220, and everyone else has Macs, mostly Macbooks. I have a docking station, so all my cables other than mouse and keyboard are behind my desk out of sight and mind. The co-worker with the iMac has the same situation. Everyone else has a Macbook Pro or Air. The entire left sides of their desk are a mess of cables spewing out the side of the Macbooks. It ruins everything. Hiding everything inside of the beautiful box keeps it pretty, so I've never really understood why Apple loves external devices so much more than internal.

potatolicious 13y ago
I think that's a problem that's rather unique to our field. Most people I know who have MacBooks don't have them in a "docked" configuration ever. It sits on their desk where the most that comes out of them is the power adapter and a USB cable. I hear ya though, my Macbook Pro doubles as my home development machine, so when I'm "docked" it's just a morass of cables. It really would be nice if Apple lived up to the "Pro" moniker and gave us a reasonable dock. I did order a Henge dock a while back, maybe I should actually unpack it and set it up...
- cicloid 13y ago
  The dock is a Thunderbolt Display
- dan_b 13y ago
  You really should, I've got one at my office and one at home.
epistasis 13y ago
> Hiding everything inside of the beautiful box keeps it pretty, so I've never really understood why Apple loves external devices so much more than internal. If you mean this criticism in regards to the Mac Pro, expansion cards usually have cables coming out of them as well, so the Mac Pro is no different from traditional desktops in that regard. SSD on PCI is obviously an exception here, but that's a relative newcomer. As far as laptop computers, the reason you have a dock and others don't is that you purchased a dock, and the others didn't. So perhaps the Apple users you know care less about aesthetics than you think they do.

JonnieCache 13y ago

As a side point, those RME audio interfaces mentioned in the article are utterly fantastic. I've recently acquired an older firewire one, and it makes everything else in its pricerange look like a bad joke. They are the only people developing custom USB/firewire controllers, everyone else just sticks a TI chipset in there, wraps the OEM drivers and goes to lunch. Not the plucky germans at RME. If you need to get audio in or out of your computer, you should settle for nothing less.

deleted 13y ago

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mhd 13y ago

This really reminds me of the original iMac. When it came out, USB devices were pretty rare, but this got better pretty quickly, especially regarding printers. Firewire wasn't as successful. Although, if I understand correctly, you can just hook up an external PCI-express bay via thunderbolt, so you don't really need special hardware (like e.g. USB audio devices). So apart from the usual series of external hard drives, you'll probably find a few expansion bays docket to your central ash tray. But given the additional power bricks, wires and boxes you need for this, it seems they're optimizing for the non-extended situation and/or want to give their other computers equal footing.

ripperdoc 13y ago

I think the key point brought up here is that there is greater convenience in external accessories once there is more than one computing device to use them with - and I'd say that's a much more common scenario than it used to be. My suggestion to Apple (or 3PP), would be to make a stackable accessory form factor (along the lines of http://www.123macmini.com/accessories/guide/enclosures.html http://www.123macmini.com/accessories/guide/enclosures.html) with built-in Thunderbolt connectors, or at least cable guides. They could be styled in the same style as the Mac Pro. Imagine just slotting on another level of your little accessory tower, with a single Thunderbolt going to the "capital ship".

mono 13y ago

"It looks like a Dyson vacuum cleaner someone lifted from the maintenance closet on the Death Star."

leoc 13y ago
Shamelessly quoting myself: "The thing looks genuinely ugly with the outer casing off: like computer junk from the late '90s, with a touch of Jawa Quality Spares." http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MspVCc0_R3g#t=105s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Msp... By the way, I just realised what it is that the base of the new Mac Pro was reminding me of: it's the old G4 iMac, of course http://macspeedzone.com/images/reviews/machines/desktop/imac/4_02/close/side_right.jpg http://macspeedzone.com/images/reviews/machines/desktop/imac... .

calinet6 13y ago

Audio pros want everything outside the box anyway: interference from the power supply, motherboard, etc are unacceptable. External peripherals are the norm. I don't see any problem with this whatsoever.

WalterSear 13y ago
External peripherals bring in the delights of ground loops wall warts and dodgey inputs. Not to mention cables galore. What is clear from this latest design is that Apple doesn't see audio production as a market worth considering when designing stuff.
- wtallis 13y ago
  Thunderbolt provides 10W of power, so a lot of devices only need one cable, and won't have any higher chance of ground loops than an internal part. Also, ground loops are much less of a problem across digital connections like TB or FireWire - it's when you're connecting two pieces of equipment with an analog audio cable that ground loops get annoying.
- calinet6 13y ago
  That's ridiculous. The power from the wall has the potential to be much cleaner and more predictable than that from a PC power supply. If that's the issue, then the device's power supply is designed poorly. I think there will be (and frankly are) very high-quality external interfaces that have none of these issues, and avoid larger internal issues. Your argument is a non-issue, and your conclusion is an overreaction.
  - prodigal_erik 13y ago
    The power from the wall is only as clean as permitted by the cheapest, most worn out hair dryer or air conditioner in your building (or maybe neighborhood). PC power supplies typically aren't great but they have to do some filtering for the machine to run at all.

stephen_g 13y ago

The loss of the hard drive bays really doesn't worry me (is anyone doing serious work really not working off a big RAID or a SAN?), and my audio interfaces have been external for years... The only thing I might want is a PCI-Express slot for a RED ROCKET card (it's a hardware decoder for 4K+ video from RED cameras) but I've never really felt the urge to splurge for one of those - both Final Cut Pro X and Premiere Pro are good enough at decoding it with the CPU and GPU even on my MacBook Pro so the Mac Pro should have no problems with it... The only time I feel it is rendering (you can work in 1/4 res [a bit more than 1080p] but for finishing you want full quality even if you're downscaling). And if I did want one, there are a number of adaptors that work with them...

jdboyd 13y ago
A Red Rocket card can be attached to your thunderbolt workstation video this http://www.mlogic.com/products/mlink-r http://www.mlogic.com/products/mlink-r which is currently listed at $599. I don't know that TB1 will have enough bandwidth for the new Red Rocket X card, and I'm not yet aware of any TB2 -> PCIe chassis for sale.

pmarin 13y ago

I am curious about if the new Mac Pro will promote the build of high end Hackintoshes to fill the gap left by Apple in their product line.