6 ms·

Brazilian citizen here, but living in the US. I never thought I'd say this, but I really wish I was back there to take part in the protests. Brazil finally has

by cesarbs 13y ago

Brazilian citizen here, but living in the US. I never thought I'd say this, but I really wish I was back there to take part in the protests. Brazil finally has a chance to change for the better. For those of you who don't know what's going on, or who are being fed incorrect information by the media: protests started because of a small increase in bus fares, but that was just the trigger to the whole thing. Brazilians are fed up with all the crap the government has been doing for decades, unscrupulously stealing tax payers' money for their own benefit. Many will say this happens everywhere, even in the most developed countries, but people from developed countries usually have no idea and can barely picture how rampant corruption is in Brazil. Brazil is not a poor country. It's one of the biggest economies in the world. But if you go down there, it will pretty much look like a poor country. Despite the strong economy and the ridiculously high taxes, there is very little income redistribution. Besides the income inequality, another thing that piss Brazilians off is the fact that everything has to be paid in double: you pay taxes for public education (even the university is free), but it's so shitty you have to pay for a private school for your kids; you pay taxes for the universal health care system, but it's so shitty (dozens of people die on the line for life-critical procedures) you have to pay for private health care (which is usually shitty too, but not nearly as shitty as the public one); you supposedly pay taxes for public safety, but it's nonexistent to a point people have to leave behind gates (I had to go through 2 gates and 2 doors, with 5 keys in total, to enter my aparment there) and bared windows and pay for private security companies to secure their homes. Brazilians have had enough. The current generation of youths is much more connected and aware of the country's problems, and usually have a much better idea that the situation outside (read US, Canada, Europe and Australia, popular destinations for studying or working abroad) is better and that a better life is possible, and it won't take it anymore. It's finally time for a change.

robryan 13y ago
This extends to imports as well, often the duties run up around 100% of the item price. Not only that but items get stuck in customs for weeks as I assume they go through everything to level these duties. From the outside selling things into Brazil it seems like a pretty bad situation. People seem to be used to it there though and just expect the import process to be painful.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  I forgot to mention that one, thanks for the note. And that is done in the name of protecting the local market, which is nonexistent for most things we want to import.
  - molmalo 13y ago
    Replace Brazil with Argentina, and everything you two have said would still be correct. As a country, we are much more alike than we like to acknowledge.
leoalves 13y ago
There are a few videos on youtube explaining it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AIBYEXLGdSg http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AIBYE... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZApBgNQgKPU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZApBgNQgKPU
hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
The so called leaders of the original movement (against the raise in the bus fares) were on an interview today and negated that the protests are because "Brazilians had enough" though. [1] They said that even though all the people are commenting on their Facebook profile for days that it's not about the bus fares anymore. The people on the protests are already being manipulated by the original movement, by left wing and right wing. Even the mass media and Internet celebrities are capitalizing on it, each claiming the protests to be whatever they feel like. The swing on the public opinion between last monday and today is so severe that it is scary, a clear study in group dynamics. Without an objective, this is more like a massive flashmob than a real movement. It's also a catastrophe waiting to occur, all it takes is one radical leadership to pop up. I hope the people get more critic or this won't achieve anything meaningful, will just fulfill the ego of the people who went to the protests to have an Instagram pic of it on their profile. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXxQ6ntyM-U&feature=c4-overview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXxQ6ntyM-U&feature=c4-overvi...
- cesarbs 13y ago
  At least there at thousands of people out there, and the government can see they won't have it forever. I guess that's the main point of it. It doesn't matter if the protests started for a reason and turned into something else. People are fed up, period. They are going out there to express their contempt for one of the world's most abusive and corrupt governments. Some are saying they are going to invade the National Congress. I really hope they do.
  - cfontes 13y ago
    Brazilian Living in Australia here. I hope they do too and kick Renan Calheiros out of it... he so deserves it. A convicted criminal being the president of a Chamber that represents the people is one of the biggest shames of our country right now, at least for me.
    - iurisilvio 13y ago
      Unfortunately, he is not the only problem here. It will be a good thing if it happen, but does not solve the huge problem we have in Brazil. The Chamber is just a sample of our society, the corruption is everywhere.
ajays 13y ago
"... there is very little income redistribution ... " Non-Brazilian here, but: doesn't Brazil basically _give_ you money if you're poor[1]? [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2010/nov/19/brazil-cash-transfer-scheme http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters...
- ghshephard 13y ago
  Non Brazillian, but I spent two months traveling parts of the country (São Paulo, Niterói , marituba (near Belém) - and the favela's (where I spent a lot of my time) made me initially think that Brazil was a very, very poor country - until I had a chance to look up the OECD stats [1] on Brazil - they are ranked firmly in the middle (on a GDP per capita, PPP). The security situation is pretty sketchy - I thought it was bad in the United States (having come from Canada) where everyone locks the door - even when they are at home - Every apartment I visited in São Paulo had a full-on-data-center-class man trap, with an elevated (and shielded) security guard to let you in. I've never seen anything like that in the United States outside of Data Centers. [1] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
  - cesarbs 13y ago
    Security was the #1 reason why I wanted to move out of the country. After my 4-year old stepdaughter saw her aunt being assaulted in broad daylight in a park, I definitely knew we couldn't stay there anymore.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  It does, but it's not a lot (and unfortunately the system is abused). There are still millions of people living in misery.
- cfontes 13y ago
  Brazilian here. Yes the government has several programs to give free money to "poor" people. With "Poor" I mean that a lot of this money get stolen, or is given to not so "poor" but criminals, before arriving to the ones that really need it. One of it is called "Bolsa Familia" and it's also a huge vote buying machine.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
martingoodson 13y ago
I went to a job interview at the Brazilian National Laboratory of Synchrotron Light. Its the only particle accelerator in Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborat%C3%B3rio_Nacional_de_Luz_S%C3%ADncrotron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborat%C3%B3rio_Nacional_de_Lu...). When I got there the Taxi driver dropped me off about a 10 minute walk away and I had to walk down a dusty mud track in order to get to at the centre. It seemed such a weird contrast to the gleaming and modern facility itself that I asked the guy interviewing me at the end why they didn't build a proper road to it. He said - 'Officially, there is a road there. We raised the money and the local authorities built it. It just never appeared.' I assume this kind of corruption is everywhere in Brazil.
- eternauta3k 13y ago
  What about the tandem accelerator TANDAR? http://www.tandar.cnea.gov.ar/ http://www.tandar.cnea.gov.ar/
  - wslh 13y ago
    Argentina does not have a synchrotron but have particle accelerators.
- mathattack 13y ago
  'Officially, there is a road there. We raised the money and the local authorities built it. It just never appeared.' I am a huge fan of Brazilian culture, but what you described is why so many aid programs fail. People know that more money should go to educated, but they have no way to ensure it doesn't get diverted.
- cesarbs 13y ago
  I went to grad school in a public university (UFRGS) there for a while, and that kind of contrast was present there too. The campus looks like an abandoned place, with tall grass everywhere, stray dogs, old buildings full of cracks, etc. But inside the labs, it's a completely different story: high-end machines, lots of computing resources, you name it. Professors make good use of grant money, but the administration doesn't take good care of the campus, probably because a lot of the money that goes to that is diverted somewhere along the way.
kryten 13y ago
Thanks for your explanation. There is a lot missing at least from the media here in the UK. It seems to be being spun as a bad thing to appease us because in the major cities in the UK, it's exactly the same by the sounds. If someone drew a comparison, shit would kick off. I do get the feeling the UK is declining into exactly the same situation at the moment. I mean we had riots kicking off all over the place a couple of years ago.
DanielRibeiro 13y ago
For those who want to understand a little bit more about the situation, this short video explains a little bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZApBgNQgKPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZApB... NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/18/world/americas/thousands-gather-for-protests-in-brazils-largest-cities.html?hp&_r=2& http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/18/world/americas/thousands-g... Also note that many other brazilians are organizing protests around the world this week[1, 2]. About 1k people in SF alone[3] The current wave of protests does not seem to be an isolatted event[4]. [1] http://www.melhorquebacon.com/lista-de-cidades-que-terao-manifestacoes-durante-essa-semana/?fb_source=pubv1 http://www.melhorquebacon.com/lista-de-cidades-que-terao-man... [2] https://www.facebook.com/CQCBlogs/posts/623054044372345 https://www.facebook.com/CQCBlogs/posts/623054044372345 [3] https://www.facebook.com/events/498561580217088/ https://www.facebook.com/events/498561580217088/ [4] http://roarmag.org/2013/06/protests-brazil-turkey-bosnia-bulgaria/ http://roarmag.org/2013/06/protests-brazil-turkey-bosnia-bul...
- swah 13y ago
  I don't have an opinion about this yet, but let me plug in some articles with a different view: - http://on.fb.me/11KQiA0 http://on.fb.me/11KQiA0 - http://on.fb.me/1bOGFoy http://on.fb.me/1bOGFoy - http://on.fb.me/19KkeUK http://on.fb.me/19KkeUK
jacoblyles 13y ago
Is there any good example of a modern country transitioning from a high-corruption country to a low-corruption country? Call me cynical, but I haven't seen a mass protest movement do a whole lot of good lately. The arab spring seems to have provided an opening for a lot of radical Islamic movements and hasn't improved the quality of life for anybody. Egyptians are suffering economically. The Brave New Day never comes
- rayiner 13y ago
  That's the problem with revolutions. It was the young people that started it, but turns out what their parents wanted was even more Islam.
- Fargren 13y ago
  Arguably, the situation in Argentina improved a lot after a the 2001 protests. I'm not a great fan of teh current government, but I think they are adequate. And I don't think we've had an adequate government sin the 60s. If anything, it's nice to be able to say that when people protests nowadays is because they can't protect their savings as well as they used to, instead of protesting because they are in real risk of starving to death as they were a decade ago.
  - GFischer 13y ago
    Just came back from Buenos Aires... while some things improved, they're NOT adequate. The desperate economic measures will end up cratering the country again (I mean, they already have, only the effects will be felt in a few months or years). Protect their savings? They can't even sell their property in a "hard" currency, and government is blatantly inflating away people's money. When the artificial dollar cracks, the facade will crumble and people WILL be hungry.
    - Fargren 13y ago
      What I see is things improving from the bottom up instead of from the top down, for the first time in a very long time. For people who are nearer to the top (and this includes a large sector of the middle classes that looks up to the top percenters), this looks like a step back, as they can't see the benefits of the things that are improving. But I really believe in the long run, this is the only plan that won't destroy the country. To me, things just seems better. I hope you are wrong.
instakill 13y ago
Sounds a lot like South Africa.
lttlrck 13y ago
Which part of TFA is incorrect? It seems from your commentary that the BBC covered the issue well. Edit: removed 'very' because I'm sure it didn't cover every possible aspect.
wslh 13y ago
It seems then that the Brazilian governments have good press then. In general Latin America countries are very similar, but I think developed countries are moving to populism too (think Obama). Obviously right now comparing US with Brazil is comparing apples and oranges. The quality of life in developed countries is much better but in US you don't have a public health system. I know that the quality of public health is not the best in Latin America but you have a chance to have a good physician and advanced treatment for free. Poor people in the region can move to countries like Argentina, obtain a citizenship and be included in the health system. I am not trying to be a relativist, just giving more information to people who doesn't know about these things.
pandres 13y ago
> Brazilians are fed up with all the crap the government has been doing for decades So it's a structural problem, not only a fault of the actual government. I would say Brazil's situation have improved a lot in the last years.
general_failure 13y ago
Sounds like india
surement 13y ago
Out of curiosity, how long have you been living outside of Brazil?

by cesarbs 13y ago

robryan 13y ago

This extends to imports as well, often the duties run up around 100% of the item price. Not only that but items get stuck in customs for weeks as I assume they go through everything to level these duties. From the outside selling things into Brazil it seems like a pretty bad situation. People seem to be used to it there though and just expect the import process to be painful.

cesarbs 13y ago
I forgot to mention that one, thanks for the note. And that is done in the name of protecting the local market, which is nonexistent for most things we want to import.
- molmalo 13y ago
  Replace Brazil with Argentina, and everything you two have said would still be correct. As a country, we are much more alike than we like to acknowledge.

leoalves 13y ago

There are a few videos on youtube explaining it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AIBYEXLGdSg http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AIBYE... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZApBgNQgKPU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZApBgNQgKPU

hcarvalhoalves 13y ago

The so called leaders of the original movement (against the raise in the bus fares) were on an interview today and negated that the protests are because "Brazilians had enough" though. [1] They said that even though all the people are commenting on their Facebook profile for days that it's not about the bus fares anymore. The people on the protests are already being manipulated by the original movement, by left wing and right wing. Even the mass media and Internet celebrities are capitalizing on it, each claiming the protests to be whatever they feel like. The swing on the public opinion between last monday and today is so severe that it is scary, a clear study in group dynamics. Without an objective, this is more like a massive flashmob than a real movement. It's also a catastrophe waiting to occur, all it takes is one radical leadership to pop up. I hope the people get more critic or this won't achieve anything meaningful, will just fulfill the ego of the people who went to the protests to have an Instagram pic of it on their profile. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXxQ6ntyM-U&feature=c4-overview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXxQ6ntyM-U&feature=c4-overvi...

cesarbs 13y ago
At least there at thousands of people out there, and the government can see they won't have it forever. I guess that's the main point of it. It doesn't matter if the protests started for a reason and turned into something else. People are fed up, period. They are going out there to express their contempt for one of the world's most abusive and corrupt governments. Some are saying they are going to invade the National Congress. I really hope they do.
- cfontes 13y ago
  Brazilian Living in Australia here. I hope they do too and kick Renan Calheiros out of it... he so deserves it. A convicted criminal being the president of a Chamber that represents the people is one of the biggest shames of our country right now, at least for me.
  - iurisilvio 13y ago
    Unfortunately, he is not the only problem here. It will be a good thing if it happen, but does not solve the huge problem we have in Brazil. The Chamber is just a sample of our society, the corruption is everywhere.

ajays 13y ago

"... there is very little income redistribution ... " Non-Brazilian here, but: doesn't Brazil basically _give_ you money if you're poor[1]? [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2010/nov/19/brazil-cash-transfer-scheme http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters...

ghshephard 13y ago
Non Brazillian, but I spent two months traveling parts of the country (São Paulo, Niterói , marituba (near Belém) - and the favela's (where I spent a lot of my time) made me initially think that Brazil was a very, very poor country - until I had a chance to look up the OECD stats [1] on Brazil - they are ranked firmly in the middle (on a GDP per capita, PPP). The security situation is pretty sketchy - I thought it was bad in the United States (having come from Canada) where everyone locks the door - even when they are at home - Every apartment I visited in São Paulo had a full-on-data-center-class man trap, with an elevated (and shielded) security guard to let you in. I've never seen anything like that in the United States outside of Data Centers. [1] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...
- cesarbs 13y ago
  Security was the #1 reason why I wanted to move out of the country. After my 4-year old stepdaughter saw her aunt being assaulted in broad daylight in a park, I definitely knew we couldn't stay there anymore.
cesarbs 13y ago
It does, but it's not a lot (and unfortunately the system is abused). There are still millions of people living in misery.
cfontes 13y ago
Brazilian here. Yes the government has several programs to give free money to "poor" people. With "Poor" I mean that a lot of this money get stolen, or is given to not so "poor" but criminals, before arriving to the ones that really need it. One of it is called "Bolsa Familia" and it's also a huge vote buying machine.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

martingoodson 13y ago

I went to a job interview at the Brazilian National Laboratory of Synchrotron Light. Its the only particle accelerator in Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborat%C3%B3rio_Nacional_de_Luz_S%C3%ADncrotron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laborat%C3%B3rio_Nacional_de_Lu...). When I got there the Taxi driver dropped me off about a 10 minute walk away and I had to walk down a dusty mud track in order to get to at the centre. It seemed such a weird contrast to the gleaming and modern facility itself that I asked the guy interviewing me at the end why they didn't build a proper road to it. He said - 'Officially, there is a road there. We raised the money and the local authorities built it. It just never appeared.' I assume this kind of corruption is everywhere in Brazil.

eternauta3k 13y ago
What about the tandem accelerator TANDAR? http://www.tandar.cnea.gov.ar/ http://www.tandar.cnea.gov.ar/
- wslh 13y ago
  Argentina does not have a synchrotron but have particle accelerators.
mathattack 13y ago
'Officially, there is a road there. We raised the money and the local authorities built it. It just never appeared.' I am a huge fan of Brazilian culture, but what you described is why so many aid programs fail. People know that more money should go to educated, but they have no way to ensure it doesn't get diverted.
cesarbs 13y ago
I went to grad school in a public university (UFRGS) there for a while, and that kind of contrast was present there too. The campus looks like an abandoned place, with tall grass everywhere, stray dogs, old buildings full of cracks, etc. But inside the labs, it's a completely different story: high-end machines, lots of computing resources, you name it. Professors make good use of grant money, but the administration doesn't take good care of the campus, probably because a lot of the money that goes to that is diverted somewhere along the way.

kryten 13y ago

Thanks for your explanation. There is a lot missing at least from the media here in the UK. It seems to be being spun as a bad thing to appease us because in the major cities in the UK, it's exactly the same by the sounds. If someone drew a comparison, shit would kick off. I do get the feeling the UK is declining into exactly the same situation at the moment. I mean we had riots kicking off all over the place a couple of years ago.

DanielRibeiro 13y ago

For those who want to understand a little bit more about the situation, this short video explains a little bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZApBgNQgKPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZApB... NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/18/world/americas/thousands-gather-for-protests-in-brazils-largest-cities.html?hp&_r=2& http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/18/world/americas/thousands-g... Also note that many other brazilians are organizing protests around the world this week[1, 2]. About 1k people in SF alone[3] The current wave of protests does not seem to be an isolatted event[4]. [1] http://www.melhorquebacon.com/lista-de-cidades-que-terao-manifestacoes-durante-essa-semana/?fb_source=pubv1 http://www.melhorquebacon.com/lista-de-cidades-que-terao-man... [2] https://www.facebook.com/CQCBlogs/posts/623054044372345 https://www.facebook.com/CQCBlogs/posts/623054044372345 [3] https://www.facebook.com/events/498561580217088/ https://www.facebook.com/events/498561580217088/ [4] http://roarmag.org/2013/06/protests-brazil-turkey-bosnia-bulgaria/ http://roarmag.org/2013/06/protests-brazil-turkey-bosnia-bul...

swah 13y ago
I don't have an opinion about this yet, but let me plug in some articles with a different view: - http://on.fb.me/11KQiA0 http://on.fb.me/11KQiA0 - http://on.fb.me/1bOGFoy http://on.fb.me/1bOGFoy - http://on.fb.me/19KkeUK http://on.fb.me/19KkeUK

jacoblyles 13y ago

Is there any good example of a modern country transitioning from a high-corruption country to a low-corruption country? Call me cynical, but I haven't seen a mass protest movement do a whole lot of good lately. The arab spring seems to have provided an opening for a lot of radical Islamic movements and hasn't improved the quality of life for anybody. Egyptians are suffering economically. The Brave New Day never comes

rayiner 13y ago
That's the problem with revolutions. It was the young people that started it, but turns out what their parents wanted was even more Islam.
Fargren 13y ago
Arguably, the situation in Argentina improved a lot after a the 2001 protests. I'm not a great fan of teh current government, but I think they are adequate. And I don't think we've had an adequate government sin the 60s. If anything, it's nice to be able to say that when people protests nowadays is because they can't protect their savings as well as they used to, instead of protesting because they are in real risk of starving to death as they were a decade ago.
- GFischer 13y ago
  Just came back from Buenos Aires... while some things improved, they're NOT adequate. The desperate economic measures will end up cratering the country again (I mean, they already have, only the effects will be felt in a few months or years). Protect their savings? They can't even sell their property in a "hard" currency, and government is blatantly inflating away people's money. When the artificial dollar cracks, the facade will crumble and people WILL be hungry.
  - Fargren 13y ago
    What I see is things improving from the bottom up instead of from the top down, for the first time in a very long time. For people who are nearer to the top (and this includes a large sector of the middle classes that looks up to the top percenters), this looks like a step back, as they can't see the benefits of the things that are improving. But I really believe in the long run, this is the only plan that won't destroy the country. To me, things just seems better. I hope you are wrong.

instakill 13y ago

Sounds a lot like South Africa.

lttlrck 13y ago

Which part of TFA is incorrect? It seems from your commentary that the BBC covered the issue well. Edit: removed 'very' because I'm sure it didn't cover every possible aspect.

wslh 13y ago

It seems then that the Brazilian governments have good press then. In general Latin America countries are very similar, but I think developed countries are moving to populism too (think Obama). Obviously right now comparing US with Brazil is comparing apples and oranges. The quality of life in developed countries is much better but in US you don't have a public health system. I know that the quality of public health is not the best in Latin America but you have a chance to have a good physician and advanced treatment for free. Poor people in the region can move to countries like Argentina, obtain a citizenship and be included in the health system. I am not trying to be a relativist, just giving more information to people who doesn't know about these things.

pandres 13y ago

> Brazilians are fed up with all the crap the government has been doing for decades So it's a structural problem, not only a fault of the actual government. I would say Brazil's situation have improved a lot in the last years.

general_failure 13y ago

Sounds like india

surement 13y ago

Out of curiosity, how long have you been living outside of Brazil?