7 ms·

Here's an idea: show me the top lists without the apps I already own! Why do I need to see Mountain Lion at the top of the App Store constantly in the #1 positi

Here's an idea: show me the top lists without the apps I already own! Why do I need to see Mountain Lion at the top of the App Store constantly in the #1 position? Just so I can know how little Mac Software gets sold and completely dissuade me from ever considering writing Mac software again? EIGHT of the top 10 apps are Apple apps. Most of which people probably already own (I happen to own all of them). Is this the image of the app store they want? If you really want to compell people to download Mountain Lion, just make it a banner at the top of the store that shows up if you don't have it! The same applies to the iOS App store though. After I owned Angry Birds, why on Earth did I have to look at it as #1 for years? Showing a top 10 with apps you already own filtered out is good for everyone. The top selling apps still show up for new users. After its purchased, it gives other apps a chance to percolate up, which means more sales for everyone, and more 30% cuts for Apple. EDIT: I'd like to point out that the OP's reference to a purely "editorial" list has the exact same problem. I don't understand why the Apple ecosystem seems hell bent on refusing to take advantage of the digital age. Creating a one-size fits all top 10 list, or editorial list, is a fine strategy for a brick and mortar store where they have to show everyone the same thing at the front of their store. And mind you, this is the absolute easiest online market place feature you can possibly program: don't show me what I already own and thus am literally incapable of repurchasing.

soapdog 13y ago
I like this idea!
brianwillis 13y ago
You might find the genius lists go some of the way toward solving this problem for you. They try show things you're likely to be interested in, and don't show stuff you already own.
- melling 13y ago
  Now if you could only remind the 500 million other iOS users. Discovery needs to be better. Most people aren't going to dig. If my girlfriend wants an app that she's heard about, I've got to install it for her. Guess who updates the apps on her phone? :-( It's gotta be real easy for most people.
  - schrodinger 13y ago
    I'm excited for automatic app updates in iOS 7...
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      I am really unfamiliar with iOS but it blows my mind that this doesn't exist already. It seems like a no-brainer for a feature, especially since Apple basically invented the modern mobile app store.
      - mgkimsal 13y ago
        I'm wary of this. Would like it as an option, but I don't necessarily want my app to change between uses, especially if it's something I need to use quickly. Loading up something with a changed UI, or data changes that need to happen, or whatever, when I wasn't expecting it.... won't make me a happy camper. A notification and ability to trigger the update from in the app would be nice, and having the option of 'auto update' would be nice too. I just don't necessarily want it to be the default with no option to opt out.
        schrodinger 13y ago
        I think that as developers, we'll need to be very careful to update things incrementally to not jar users. But overall, it should be a win in that just like with a website, the user is always using the latest code. No need to maintain several old versions of web service APIs, which should have a good effect on reducing bugs.
        Sevores 13y ago
        There is a notification and you can opt-out.
        mgkimsal 13y ago
        thanks.
- Jare 13y ago
  "Try" being the keyword there. Despite my very clear patterns of app consumption (action & puzzle games), Genius keeps suggesting me different podcast apps because I bought one 2 years ago (hint: nobody needs more than one). It has proven completely useless.
  - bergie 13y ago
    This seems a problem Amazon has as well. Because I bought an extra power adapter for my tablet, the My Amazon list is now full of various power adapters...
eridius 13y ago
Why does Mountain Lion being at the top mean very little Mac software gets sold? Is it really that surprising that the OS itself is the most popular software on the store?
- tolmasky 13y ago
  Perhaps not Mountain Lion per se, but by your own description it effectively turns the top 10 into a top 9, and for no reason. Now, when that is expanded to the point where the practical reality is that non-apple apps are basically competing for two slots in the top 10, then yes, you start to feel like maybe not that much software is being sold on the Mac App Store. When a spreadsheet program that hasn't seen a major revision in 4 years still chops the charts, yes, it feels like its probably not worth it. More importantly, as a user, I've simply become blind to the top 10 charts on the Mac App Store completely. I have no desire to visually scan for the 2 apps that might be different.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
fudged71 13y ago
Developers in particular like to know what spot on the charts their app got to. By not filtering the results everyone has a definitive view of the placement of these apps. So they should filter the top list like you mention, but show a definitive list online.
- peterkelly 13y ago
  This could be provided as a separate option on iTunes connect. If it was purely to cater for developers it doesn't need to be in the main app store interface.
- austenallred 13y ago
  This isn't a complex UX problem. Let me choose if I want to see apps I don't have or overall. Set the default as apps I don't have.
orky56 13y ago
The great thing is that Google has replaced their old Featuring concept with 2 sections of slots based on a recommendation algorithm. It recommends you a particular game/app based on what you have already installed on your device and other data. Despite this, it still recommends you games/apps you already have installed. Very surprising indeed!
- dquail 13y ago
  From what I understand, google is even going further. They're ranking based on the usage of installed apps. ie. an app installed and never used is ranked much lower than one that's installed and used daily.
zimpenfish 13y ago
A friend suggested that once. He unsuggested it after I walked through the umpteen problems involved in implementing this over hundreds of millions of accounts.
- tehwalrus 13y ago
  As a user-side filter, this is actually not that difficult to implement (assuming the device caches the list of purchased app ids for the current iTunes account, or even easier just the apps that are already installed on this device). It means it'll take multiple requests to get all the results, sure, but if you weigh the initial request statistically (for the first 10, I think we'll need 12..) and so on, you can avoid even that.
  - zimpenfish 13y ago
    Multiple requests that the client is paying for over a possibly flaky network connection and now you have to handle all sorts of edge cases and errors that you didn't before. Why bother?
    - tehwalrus 13y ago
      The app store (at least in the UK) has always been hideously slow and rubbish, even on a fast connection. I don't even try on cellular data anymore (to look at stuff, not even download/update.) As I said, this wouldn't involve much more in the way of data transfer than the current setup. I assume that 15 apps instead of 10 preloading is the same order of magnitude; the latency is the kicker, not the tiny bandwidth required for metadata and icons.
- thwarted 13y ago
  This is solved in a distributed fashion. The end user machines know which apps they have, and the ordering of the top 11 doesn't change if you already have the first one. So you ship down identifiers for top 20 or 50, which, even with metadata, is going to be smaller, bytewise, than the average apple.com homepage. When you go to display them, you remove the ones the user has and display the top 10 of the remaining set. If there are none left, request another block of apps. The size of the first block to send can be honed in on over time based on the number of subsequent blocks requested by clients. But even doing this server side isn't that bad, calculating the difference between two sets, the top 100 apps and the apps a user owns, iterating with more if the size of the result is less than 10, is a lot less work on a per-user per-request basis than a lot of sites do to customize their experience. Of course, Apple most likely doesn't want anyone to know which app is the 11th or something, which means a lot of server side processing to customize the exact list of 10 sent to the client. Sites like Facebook already do this kind of stuff for calculating the timeline for hundreds of millions of accounts.
stonemetal 13y ago
I think Apple should keep their software out of the top 10, but I think there is a bit of social reinforcement by having stuff you own in the top 10. You can feel like a taste maker if you got an app before it made it to the top 10, feel like part of the in crowd because you own 1, 2, and 3 etc. Editorial list? Sure filter the heck out of it.

soapdog 13y ago

I like this idea!

brianwillis 13y ago

You might find the genius lists go some of the way toward solving this problem for you. They try show things you're likely to be interested in, and don't show stuff you already own.

melling 13y ago
Now if you could only remind the 500 million other iOS users. Discovery needs to be better. Most people aren't going to dig. If my girlfriend wants an app that she's heard about, I've got to install it for her. Guess who updates the apps on her phone? :-( It's gotta be real easy for most people.
- schrodinger 13y ago
  I'm excited for automatic app updates in iOS 7...
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    I am really unfamiliar with iOS but it blows my mind that this doesn't exist already. It seems like a no-brainer for a feature, especially since Apple basically invented the modern mobile app store.
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      I'm wary of this. Would like it as an option, but I don't necessarily want my app to change between uses, especially if it's something I need to use quickly. Loading up something with a changed UI, or data changes that need to happen, or whatever, when I wasn't expecting it.... won't make me a happy camper. A notification and ability to trigger the update from in the app would be nice, and having the option of 'auto update' would be nice too. I just don't necessarily want it to be the default with no option to opt out.
      - schrodinger 13y ago
        I think that as developers, we'll need to be very careful to update things incrementally to not jar users. But overall, it should be a win in that just like with a website, the user is always using the latest code. No need to maintain several old versions of web service APIs, which should have a good effect on reducing bugs.
      - Sevores 13y ago
        There is a notification and you can opt-out.
        mgkimsal 13y ago
        thanks.
Jare 13y ago
"Try" being the keyword there. Despite my very clear patterns of app consumption (action & puzzle games), Genius keeps suggesting me different podcast apps because I bought one 2 years ago (hint: nobody needs more than one). It has proven completely useless.
- bergie 13y ago
  This seems a problem Amazon has as well. Because I bought an extra power adapter for my tablet, the My Amazon list is now full of various power adapters...

eridius 13y ago

Why does Mountain Lion being at the top mean very little Mac software gets sold? Is it really that surprising that the OS itself is the most popular software on the store?

tolmasky 13y ago
Perhaps not Mountain Lion per se, but by your own description it effectively turns the top 10 into a top 9, and for no reason. Now, when that is expanded to the point where the practical reality is that non-apple apps are basically competing for two slots in the top 10, then yes, you start to feel like maybe not that much software is being sold on the Mac App Store. When a spreadsheet program that hasn't seen a major revision in 4 years still chops the charts, yes, it feels like its probably not worth it. More importantly, as a user, I've simply become blind to the top 10 charts on the Mac App Store completely. I have no desire to visually scan for the 2 apps that might be different.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

fudged71 13y ago

Developers in particular like to know what spot on the charts their app got to. By not filtering the results everyone has a definitive view of the placement of these apps. So they should filter the top list like you mention, but show a definitive list online.

peterkelly 13y ago
This could be provided as a separate option on iTunes connect. If it was purely to cater for developers it doesn't need to be in the main app store interface.
austenallred 13y ago
This isn't a complex UX problem. Let me choose if I want to see apps I don't have or overall. Set the default as apps I don't have.

orky56 13y ago

The great thing is that Google has replaced their old Featuring concept with 2 sections of slots based on a recommendation algorithm. It recommends you a particular game/app based on what you have already installed on your device and other data. Despite this, it still recommends you games/apps you already have installed. Very surprising indeed!

dquail 13y ago
From what I understand, google is even going further. They're ranking based on the usage of installed apps. ie. an app installed and never used is ranked much lower than one that's installed and used daily.

zimpenfish 13y ago

A friend suggested that once. He unsuggested it after I walked through the umpteen problems involved in implementing this over hundreds of millions of accounts.

tehwalrus 13y ago
As a user-side filter, this is actually not that difficult to implement (assuming the device caches the list of purchased app ids for the current iTunes account, or even easier just the apps that are already installed on this device). It means it'll take multiple requests to get all the results, sure, but if you weigh the initial request statistically (for the first 10, I think we'll need 12..) and so on, you can avoid even that.
- zimpenfish 13y ago
  Multiple requests that the client is paying for over a possibly flaky network connection and now you have to handle all sorts of edge cases and errors that you didn't before. Why bother?
  - tehwalrus 13y ago
    The app store (at least in the UK) has always been hideously slow and rubbish, even on a fast connection. I don't even try on cellular data anymore (to look at stuff, not even download/update.) As I said, this wouldn't involve much more in the way of data transfer than the current setup. I assume that 15 apps instead of 10 preloading is the same order of magnitude; the latency is the kicker, not the tiny bandwidth required for metadata and icons.
thwarted 13y ago
This is solved in a distributed fashion. The end user machines know which apps they have, and the ordering of the top 11 doesn't change if you already have the first one. So you ship down identifiers for top 20 or 50, which, even with metadata, is going to be smaller, bytewise, than the average apple.com homepage. When you go to display them, you remove the ones the user has and display the top 10 of the remaining set. If there are none left, request another block of apps. The size of the first block to send can be honed in on over time based on the number of subsequent blocks requested by clients. But even doing this server side isn't that bad, calculating the difference between two sets, the top 100 apps and the apps a user owns, iterating with more if the size of the result is less than 10, is a lot less work on a per-user per-request basis than a lot of sites do to customize their experience. Of course, Apple most likely doesn't want anyone to know which app is the 11th or something, which means a lot of server side processing to customize the exact list of 10 sent to the client. Sites like Facebook already do this kind of stuff for calculating the timeline for hundreds of millions of accounts.

stonemetal 13y ago

I think Apple should keep their software out of the top 10, but I think there is a bit of social reinforcement by having stuff you own in the top 10. You can feel like a taste maker if you got an app before it made it to the top 10, feel like part of the in crowd because you own 1, 2, and 3 etc. Editorial list? Sure filter the heck out of it.