10 ms·

I Know What You Think of Me

294 points by jejune06 13y ago

Dove 13y ago
I’ve often thought that the single most devastating cyberattack [would be] simply to simultaneously make every e-mail and text ever sent universally public. . . . . the fabric of society would instantly evaporate, every marriage, friendship and business partnership dissolved. I don't think it would be quite that bad. There are some people who lie to everyone, but there are also some people who are decent and honest. Some relationships would weather that kind of storm just fine. In fact, maybe this is the optimist in me, or maybe I'm projecting, but I think most relationships would be just fine.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I would indeed be concerned if everyone around me really lived in a bed of lies that deep. I don't have many friends, but I have no reason at all to suspect that I wouldn't still have those friends should such a thing occur.
  - moens 13y ago
    It would be a wonderful political hack though. Just thinking of a zero day email dump hack makes me smile. The political fallout alone... just imagine. Wow, I felt like I was channeling John Lennon there for a moment.
- robryan 13y ago
  As someone who doesn't engage in much personal gossip I would focus on the business relationships aspect. There is often a lot of nuance in these relationships and talking to them in one way and internally in another. That is not to say you are screwing them over but read out of context by the other party could damage the relationship.
- mateo411 13y ago
  In this passage the author is using satire. Of course it wouldn't be that bad, but describing literally how it would be, wouldn't be that funny.
  - Dove 13y ago
    I don't think it would be satire, exactly. He'd have to be making fun of something specific that someone else said. Hyperbole, maybe? At any rate, that would be encouraging if it were true. I must admit, I do not have a threshold of cynicism beyond which I assume a sentiment is a joke. There seem to be arbitrarily depressing people out there.
- cm2012 13y ago
  I started a reddit thread once, "who here has absolutely no secrets with their SO?" While there were a number who couldnt imagine that kind of trust, a multitude said that living that was is incredibly freeing. I know I agree with that.
obviouslygreen 13y ago
This is a great article. Not good, great. It's a simple and objective look at a very difficult truth: It's so very easy (and, in the author's assessment -- which I agree with -- so very normal) to look at yourself as the exception, and to ignore or simply be ignorant of your own flaws, while eagerly pointing out those of others. I keep learning more about myself (not the pleasant things, of course) because of this sort of introspection. I had absolutely none of it as a kid. I think few people do, but the more you manage -- and the later in life you manage it -- the harder it is to look back at yourself and not wince. I'd say, and I think the author makes this point as well, at least in passing, one of the hardest things is forgiving yourself when you step back and realize how you've behaved (particularly after condemning others for the same actions). It's a lot easier to take someone else's actions and say "well, he/she didn't mean it" or "OK, that's just how people are" than to look at yourself, know that yes, you did mean it or intend to do it, and no, you don't really find it acceptable.
- criswell 13y ago
  We judge others by their actions, ourselves by our intentions.
  - bobwaycott 13y ago
    Indeed. Fundamental attribution error.
  - earbitscom 13y ago
    I tend not to do this, which is why I find myself at age 35 with practically no grudges held and very few people who I cannot tolerate or even appreciate. It also makes it easier to recognize whether something is reconcilable in business, with employees, etc. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. I often find that unless I truly believe something was done out of malice, I have very little problem getting over it quickly.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      I'm also 35 and feel exactly the same way. This often gets me in trouble with my wife when she exclaims "how could x have done y!" and I proceed to stick my foot in mouth by saying "maybe they were thinking z".
rheide 13y ago
I wonder if the author ever emails one of the two friends about the other. It's unfair if only one side of the private emails gets opened, but the other stays hidden. Also, given that presumably you're still friends after this incident, who cares? A single email is a ridiculously small facet of a person to base an opinion off of. And if you weren't friends but just colleagues, who cares? You've just learned an important bit of information: your colleagues don't approve of your expenditures. This will help you plan your future. Take it and learn. More information is hardly ever bad.
- bobz 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure you didn't actually read most of this article.
michaelochurch 13y ago
This brings to mind why people who are socially inept tend to fall behind further in interpersonal skill, unless they make concerted efforts to improve themselves. When you start developing the ability to read people, it's painful because you realize that most people passively dislike you. It gets a little better when you realize that most of the low-level passive dislike is impersonal. Passive dislike of others (perceived as intruders, a "crowd", etc.) is the norm, and taking offense to human traits that evolved in times of scarcity and fear makes no sense. When you're socially inept and perceive others as unfairly exaggerating your faults, it feels like persecution. Reality is that people just exaggerate everyone's faults because it's how humans are. Learning what people really are is painful and demoralizing if you're socially average or above, but it's devastating for people who are socially inept.
- eru 13y ago
  > This brings to mind why people who are socially inept tend to fall behind further in interpersonal skill, unless they make concerted efforts to improve themselves. When you start developing the ability to read people, it's painful because you realize that most people passively dislike you. Really? I never got that impression.
- nollidge 13y ago
  Passively dislike you, or just don't have any particular interest in you whatsoever? (Or is that exactly what you mean by "passive dislike"?)
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    Mostly "no particular interest", but passive dislike comes from an (understandable) fear of congestion. All else being equal, you'd rather fewer people be where you are than many. You'd rather ride a half-empty plane than a full one. You'd rather your favorite restaurant be quiet and spacious than crowded and loud. Of course, everyone has specific people they'd prefer to be around... but we're mostly irritated by crowds and be around people we didn't select. That's just how we are. We're animals, and every animal exhibits heightened cognitive load when animals of the same species (conspecific individuals) are in range. This is not worth getting angry about. It's just how the world seems to work. Even if the world isn't congested, it almost always feels that way... and to most people, you and I are part of the problem. When you drive, you're part of "traffic".
bradenb 13y ago
I am painfully aware of how much energy I expend trying to prop myself up above others. Whether I am delicately explaining how I would have done it differently or just fidgeting with my clothes to make myself look better in that place's light, I end up feeling like I'm acting fake. Maybe I am. Regardless, I think there's little we can do about it. Anytime I overcome the urge to make myself look better to the strangers around me, it is done through no small amount of conscious effort. It is so much easier to just give in to my genetic encoding and try to appear more fit than to make my existence easier.
- r00fus 13y ago
  Or in my case, I spend a lot of time in denial about how much I intend not do... do exactly what you're describing, but finding out after the fact (re-playing conversations with others, or listening to complaints from my family) that I, unbeknownst to my conscious mind, do exactly that.
wwweston 13y ago
> "I’ve often thought that the single most devastating cyberattack a diabolical and anarchic mind could design would not be on the military or financial sector but simply to simultaneously make every e-mail and text ever sent universally public... the fabric of society would instantly evaporate, every marriage, friendship and business partnership dissolved. Civilization ... is held together by a fragile web of tactful phrasing, polite omissions and white lies" Dr. Doofenshmirtz agrees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvELB_lHsXQ#t=4m19s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvELB_lHsXQ#t=4m19s
- saraid216 13y ago
  Hail to the whistleblowers, then?
nostromo 13y ago
I had a talk with a friend recently who is newly single, and it was clear to me that Facebook was making her crazy. She kept asking me questions about what people that were friends with her and her ex thought of her, or were saying behind her back, or were posting about her in a way that she couldn't see. It was an uphill battle, but I finally convinced her of the truth: nobody really talked about her or her ex that much at all. And what was said was trite and banal, "Oh, I'm sad they broke up..." This was a bit of revelation for her. I think people that obsess over what is said about them behind their backs should take that to heart. The truth is you probably spend a lot less time in people's thoughts than you think you do.
- bitops 13y ago
  I heard a good joke about this: when you're 20, you're obsessed with what others think about you. When you're 40, you don't give a damn what others think about you. When you're 60, you realize others were never thinking about you at all.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    I hesitate to quote Ayn Rand, but it's fitting: "Mr. Roark, we’re alone here. Why don’t you tell me what you think of me? In any words you wish. No one will hear us." "But I don’t think of you." -Ellsworth Toohey and Howard Roark, The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand
    - dclowd9901 13y ago
      Michael Ginsberg: "I feel bad for you." Don Draper: "I don't think about you at all." (The irony of this line is that Draper, in fact, was obsessed with one-upping Ginsberg the whole episode.)
      - sanderjd 13y ago
        Things like this are what make Don Draper such a fantastic (and fantastically loathsome) character. He knows which buttons to push at which times. It is that quality that makes him both successful in his career and miserable in his life.
robg 13y ago
I often struggle with the most basic question of them all: Who am I? To me, how I live my life is the only way to answer that attempt at self-reflection. Yet, we are not what we do. That's the dodge that plagues me.
- zaptheimpaler 13y ago
  Each of us is two very different people - the one we know, and the one others know. I've found that self-reflection only takes me so far because of how charitable we tend to be to ourselves. I'm trying to get to know the me that others know - the me composed of my actions and their perceived motives and outcomes. It's deeply discomforting how different that me is from the one I know. Try this - record a few of your phone conversations (with the other persons permission) over a week and listen to them. I found that the person on the phone is pretty far from who I thought I am.
- saraid216 13y ago
  I'd actually suggest Montaigne, if you haven't touched him already; this is a good intro: http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/dp/1590514831/ http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/d...
hawkharris 13y ago
The sensation that the author describes -- that uncomfortable feeling of realizing that you're being viewed as just as another person, not always in a positively light -- is similar to what I feel when I think about unlawful surveillance, including programs like PRISM.
snorkel 13y ago
If you work at a company that enforces 360 peer reviews you'll get to find out what everyone thinks of you whether you want to or not.
siavosh 13y ago
When I worked at a financial firm, we were regularly reminded not to write any emails that we wouldn't mind being printed on the front page of a newspaper. It's a tough habit to keep in mind, especially for non-work emails, but it's a good litmus test and it's helped me edit some emails before pressing 'send'.
- srl 13y ago
  Although it's clear what you meant, as you wrote the sentence, it has a somewhat more entertaining. You meant, "that we would mind being printed...". As written, it meshes nicely with my opinion of the financial sector. (/tongue-in-cheek)
atourgates 13y ago
I think the important question no-one seems to be asking is: what's up with the goats? No seriously, for what reason does a NYT contributor/essayist/cartoonist need goats on demand? Also: I'm calling it now, "Uber for Goats" is the next big startup idea.
- paganel 13y ago
  I'm a programmer, not a NYT contributor, but even so my back-up plan for when I'll no longer be able to earn money from writing code is to start raising goats. It helps that my (living in the countryside) parents used to have a goat until not that long ago, and I could use their place for, well, starting the new endeavor. Back to the article, I'm bummed that the photo of said goats wasn't presented to us.
- mjt0229 13y ago
  In Seattle, you can rent goats to help take care of pesky invasive vegetation like blackberry bushes. Blackberries sound like a good idea until they take over, and they're very difficult to remove. Goats will eat them, though, so you can rent a small herd of goats and in a few days, the brambles will be eaten back to a level where they can be dug up by the roots. I have no idea whether this was the case in this particular situation.
  - homosaur 13y ago
    This is actually very common. You can make an nice chunk of change in the area between KY and SC renting out your goats to destroy kudzu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIoRJG2yDoI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIoRJG2yDoI UK prof points out the obvious proposition, you keep a proper goat/kudzu ratio and it's MONEY TREE
- ratsbane 13y ago
  That was my first thought too. And second, that if it's possible to rent a herd of goats I would like to do exactly that. I'll figure out a reason after the fact.
- danabramov 13y ago
abecedarius 13y ago
When I interviewed at $researchcenter and accidentally got CCed afterwards by $bigname in the thread evaluating me, that was kind of eye-opening. It might be worth asking people now and then for anonymous feedback as a reasonable substitute for that kind of goof. (A search brings up http://www.squidoo.com/anonymous-feedback http://www.squidoo.com/anonymous-feedback which I haven't tried any of.)
lwhi 13y ago
Earlier this evening I received a text message from a someone I felt I was starting to have feelings for. Probably just infatuation, but possibly something more. Another text soon followed; one that was very affectionate. In the 3 minutes between replying and receiving the apologetic '... I'm sorry that wasn't meant for you...' reply, I experienced a full range of emotions from elation to embarrassment — disappointment to denial. It's a funny old life. I found this article at the top of hacker news 5 minutes later. Definitely struck a chord.
- robryan 13y ago
  Or it was and they are backtracking, although maybe not best to think too much about that.
  - 3minus1 13y ago
    or maybe be honest! why not.
sockgrant 13y ago
What's interesting is that it seems like the less you care what people think about you, the more people like you. You become more genuinely you. This makes you unique and interesting. Besides, people can see through someone trying too hard.
WalterBright 13y ago
If you want to have some fun, take a dance class, and then have someone videotape you dancing. It's usually pretty horrifying.
- TeMPOraL 13y ago
  I went once with a friend to a club and he said that I really stand out of the crowd as a geek. I said: impossible, prove it. He took out his phone and recorded 30 seconds of me dancing. It took me watching just two seconds from this movie to realize he was right. I don't frequent dance floors much since then. Still haven't got over it.
- david927 13y ago
  A variation is to try run as normally as you can. Be honest; no goofing about. Try to run as normally as anyone can. Then have someone watching you run (again, honestly) exactly as you just ran. It's both hysterical and horrifying, because what you think of as normal is anything but. And it's true for everyone.
incision 13y ago
I like to think I became pretty adept and being unconcerned about other's opinions and honest yet selective about voicing my own relatively early on. Though I was quite happy internally and I do believe it was a net win socially, living that way isn't without its own problems. As a result, I've had to learn to feign back the other way to some degree.
Deejahll 13y ago
The author of this article, Tim Kreider, may be better known by some of us Internet folk as purveyor of the fine web-comic "The Pain": http://thepaincomics.com/ http://thepaincomics.com/
deleted 13y ago
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6d0debc071 13y ago
When I was younger my mother used to tell me that the family that plays together stays together, and that's a pattern I've found repeated more generally in life: I tend to look at my friendship in terms of what people do with me. What activities we engage in together. Interpretation is all well and good, but if you don't really do anything together what are they interpreting? It's a relationship built on dreams and imagination. And what do they really stand to lose in thinking poorly of you? I'm actually constantly amazed by how strong friendships are, and how much people seem to respect each other. It seems like most people are only weakly friends, and that more by necessity than anything else. What interests do you really share with people? It's hard to think of having a really serious disagreement with someone from the office - you sympathise with them even if they'd be bores were you to meet them under other conditions. From my perspective the world seems full of friendships and relationships that people invest heavily in emotionally and yet seem terrifyingly fragile. (Pretty amazing that they don't fall apart more regularly.) Maybe people would be happier and more secure if they paid more attention to the things they enjoy and the people they enjoy them with than being bothered about what just... other people... think of them - I don't know. For myself, I know that I'd be very worried if it turned out that someone, even someone close to me, regularly spent a significant amount of their time just thinking about me. I have my own life and interests, and expect others to have theirs too - being elevated to some ideal of perfection in someone's world is a little creepy.
mustafakidd 13y ago
Ahh - I love Tim Kreider. Find him hilarious, poignant, extremely witty, and intelligent. Mentioned elsewhere, but if it helps drive more people to his site, here it is: http://thepaincomics.com/ http://thepaincomics.com/
- Garoof 13y ago
  Never heard of him, "The context is that I had rented a herd of goats for reasons that aren’t relevant here and had sent out a mass e-mail with photographs of the goats attached to illustrate that a) I had goats, and b) it was good." but he seems like an awesome guy :D Thanks for the link.
joelhooks 13y ago
I worked at a high end law firm for a couple of years and there was a paralegal that was routinely abused by her boss. She got fed up after seeing an email thread and took it to the managing partner. The managing partner was a really great guy, and his solution was to let her print all of the offending attorney relevant email threads and distribute them to the entire office. It was righteous. It surprised the attorney, as she had her emails published and she was fired on the same day.
lucb1e 13y ago
Just wanted to remark > the dreadful consequence of hitting "reply all" instead of "reply" or "forward." This is why I never write things down that I wouldn't want to end up being read by the subject. Ever. Regardless I'll always go over the To-, CC- and BCC-list three times, but negative (unconstructive) things should be said only by mediums that you can expect to be entirely private. E-mail might be read by others when the colleague would leave the company or something, the sysadmins may snoop it, or he might just be standing by when the recipient receives the message. Or the colleague might make a mistake in sending it. Not that I talk about others that much behind their backs, or at least I hope I don't unconsciously do it too much, but still. Edit: > a staircase you could descend deep underground, in which you heard recordings of all the things anyone had ever said about you, both good and bad. The catch was, you had to pass through all the worst things people had said before you could get to the highest compliments at the very bottom. That sounds incredibly awesome. I'd force myself to descend all the way, and I think it'd be good. Make me realize how bad some things have been and what I can improve, but also make it a rewarding experience in the end that motivates to continue doing the good things and do more good things.
charleslmunger 13y ago
This is basically what happened in the diplomacy world when the State Department cables were leaked.

294 points by jejune06 13y ago

Dove 13y ago

I’ve often thought that the single most devastating cyberattack [would be] simply to simultaneously make every e-mail and text ever sent universally public. . . . . the fabric of society would instantly evaporate, every marriage, friendship and business partnership dissolved. I don't think it would be quite that bad. There are some people who lie to everyone, but there are also some people who are decent and honest. Some relationships would weather that kind of storm just fine. In fact, maybe this is the optimist in me, or maybe I'm projecting, but I think most relationships would be just fine.

mpyne 13y ago
I would indeed be concerned if everyone around me really lived in a bed of lies that deep. I don't have many friends, but I have no reason at all to suspect that I wouldn't still have those friends should such a thing occur.
- moens 13y ago
  It would be a wonderful political hack though. Just thinking of a zero day email dump hack makes me smile. The political fallout alone... just imagine. Wow, I felt like I was channeling John Lennon there for a moment.
robryan 13y ago
As someone who doesn't engage in much personal gossip I would focus on the business relationships aspect. There is often a lot of nuance in these relationships and talking to them in one way and internally in another. That is not to say you are screwing them over but read out of context by the other party could damage the relationship.
mateo411 13y ago
In this passage the author is using satire. Of course it wouldn't be that bad, but describing literally how it would be, wouldn't be that funny.
- Dove 13y ago
  I don't think it would be satire, exactly. He'd have to be making fun of something specific that someone else said. Hyperbole, maybe? At any rate, that would be encouraging if it were true. I must admit, I do not have a threshold of cynicism beyond which I assume a sentiment is a joke. There seem to be arbitrarily depressing people out there.
cm2012 13y ago
I started a reddit thread once, "who here has absolutely no secrets with their SO?" While there were a number who couldnt imagine that kind of trust, a multitude said that living that was is incredibly freeing. I know I agree with that.

obviouslygreen 13y ago

This is a great article. Not good, great. It's a simple and objective look at a very difficult truth: It's so very easy (and, in the author's assessment -- which I agree with -- so very normal) to look at yourself as the exception, and to ignore or simply be ignorant of your own flaws, while eagerly pointing out those of others. I keep learning more about myself (not the pleasant things, of course) because of this sort of introspection. I had absolutely none of it as a kid. I think few people do, but the more you manage -- and the later in life you manage it -- the harder it is to look back at yourself and not wince. I'd say, and I think the author makes this point as well, at least in passing, one of the hardest things is forgiving yourself when you step back and realize how you've behaved (particularly after condemning others for the same actions). It's a lot easier to take someone else's actions and say "well, he/she didn't mean it" or "OK, that's just how people are" than to look at yourself, know that yes, you did mean it or intend to do it, and no, you don't really find it acceptable.

criswell 13y ago
We judge others by their actions, ourselves by our intentions.
- bobwaycott 13y ago
  Indeed. Fundamental attribution error.
- earbitscom 13y ago
  I tend not to do this, which is why I find myself at age 35 with practically no grudges held and very few people who I cannot tolerate or even appreciate. It also makes it easier to recognize whether something is reconcilable in business, with employees, etc. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. I often find that unless I truly believe something was done out of malice, I have very little problem getting over it quickly.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    I'm also 35 and feel exactly the same way. This often gets me in trouble with my wife when she exclaims "how could x have done y!" and I proceed to stick my foot in mouth by saying "maybe they were thinking z".

rheide 13y ago

I wonder if the author ever emails one of the two friends about the other. It's unfair if only one side of the private emails gets opened, but the other stays hidden. Also, given that presumably you're still friends after this incident, who cares? A single email is a ridiculously small facet of a person to base an opinion off of. And if you weren't friends but just colleagues, who cares? You've just learned an important bit of information: your colleagues don't approve of your expenditures. This will help you plan your future. Take it and learn. More information is hardly ever bad.

bobz 13y ago
I'm pretty sure you didn't actually read most of this article.

michaelochurch 13y ago

This brings to mind why people who are socially inept tend to fall behind further in interpersonal skill, unless they make concerted efforts to improve themselves. When you start developing the ability to read people, it's painful because you realize that most people passively dislike you. It gets a little better when you realize that most of the low-level passive dislike is impersonal. Passive dislike of others (perceived as intruders, a "crowd", etc.) is the norm, and taking offense to human traits that evolved in times of scarcity and fear makes no sense. When you're socially inept and perceive others as unfairly exaggerating your faults, it feels like persecution. Reality is that people just exaggerate everyone's faults because it's how humans are. Learning what people really are is painful and demoralizing if you're socially average or above, but it's devastating for people who are socially inept.

eru 13y ago
> This brings to mind why people who are socially inept tend to fall behind further in interpersonal skill, unless they make concerted efforts to improve themselves. When you start developing the ability to read people, it's painful because you realize that most people passively dislike you. Really? I never got that impression.
nollidge 13y ago
Passively dislike you, or just don't have any particular interest in you whatsoever? (Or is that exactly what you mean by "passive dislike"?)
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  Mostly "no particular interest", but passive dislike comes from an (understandable) fear of congestion. All else being equal, you'd rather fewer people be where you are than many. You'd rather ride a half-empty plane than a full one. You'd rather your favorite restaurant be quiet and spacious than crowded and loud. Of course, everyone has specific people they'd prefer to be around... but we're mostly irritated by crowds and be around people we didn't select. That's just how we are. We're animals, and every animal exhibits heightened cognitive load when animals of the same species (conspecific individuals) are in range. This is not worth getting angry about. It's just how the world seems to work. Even if the world isn't congested, it almost always feels that way... and to most people, you and I are part of the problem. When you drive, you're part of "traffic".

bradenb 13y ago

I am painfully aware of how much energy I expend trying to prop myself up above others. Whether I am delicately explaining how I would have done it differently or just fidgeting with my clothes to make myself look better in that place's light, I end up feeling like I'm acting fake. Maybe I am. Regardless, I think there's little we can do about it. Anytime I overcome the urge to make myself look better to the strangers around me, it is done through no small amount of conscious effort. It is so much easier to just give in to my genetic encoding and try to appear more fit than to make my existence easier.

r00fus 13y ago
Or in my case, I spend a lot of time in denial about how much I intend not do... do exactly what you're describing, but finding out after the fact (re-playing conversations with others, or listening to complaints from my family) that I, unbeknownst to my conscious mind, do exactly that.

wwweston 13y ago

> "I’ve often thought that the single most devastating cyberattack a diabolical and anarchic mind could design would not be on the military or financial sector but simply to simultaneously make every e-mail and text ever sent universally public... the fabric of society would instantly evaporate, every marriage, friendship and business partnership dissolved. Civilization ... is held together by a fragile web of tactful phrasing, polite omissions and white lies" Dr. Doofenshmirtz agrees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvELB_lHsXQ#t=4m19s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvELB_lHsXQ#t=4m19s

saraid216 13y ago
Hail to the whistleblowers, then?

nostromo 13y ago

I had a talk with a friend recently who is newly single, and it was clear to me that Facebook was making her crazy. She kept asking me questions about what people that were friends with her and her ex thought of her, or were saying behind her back, or were posting about her in a way that she couldn't see. It was an uphill battle, but I finally convinced her of the truth: nobody really talked about her or her ex that much at all. And what was said was trite and banal, "Oh, I'm sad they broke up..." This was a bit of revelation for her. I think people that obsess over what is said about them behind their backs should take that to heart. The truth is you probably spend a lot less time in people's thoughts than you think you do.

bitops 13y ago
I heard a good joke about this: when you're 20, you're obsessed with what others think about you. When you're 40, you don't give a damn what others think about you. When you're 60, you realize others were never thinking about you at all.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  I hesitate to quote Ayn Rand, but it's fitting: "Mr. Roark, we’re alone here. Why don’t you tell me what you think of me? In any words you wish. No one will hear us." "But I don’t think of you." -Ellsworth Toohey and Howard Roark, The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand
  - dclowd9901 13y ago
    Michael Ginsberg: "I feel bad for you." Don Draper: "I don't think about you at all." (The irony of this line is that Draper, in fact, was obsessed with one-upping Ginsberg the whole episode.)
    - sanderjd 13y ago
      Things like this are what make Don Draper such a fantastic (and fantastically loathsome) character. He knows which buttons to push at which times. It is that quality that makes him both successful in his career and miserable in his life.

robg 13y ago

I often struggle with the most basic question of them all: Who am I? To me, how I live my life is the only way to answer that attempt at self-reflection. Yet, we are not what we do. That's the dodge that plagues me.

zaptheimpaler 13y ago
Each of us is two very different people - the one we know, and the one others know. I've found that self-reflection only takes me so far because of how charitable we tend to be to ourselves. I'm trying to get to know the me that others know - the me composed of my actions and their perceived motives and outcomes. It's deeply discomforting how different that me is from the one I know. Try this - record a few of your phone conversations (with the other persons permission) over a week and listen to them. I found that the person on the phone is pretty far from who I thought I am.
saraid216 13y ago
I'd actually suggest Montaigne, if you haven't touched him already; this is a good intro: http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/dp/1590514831/ http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/d...

hawkharris 13y ago

The sensation that the author describes -- that uncomfortable feeling of realizing that you're being viewed as just as another person, not always in a positively light -- is similar to what I feel when I think about unlawful surveillance, including programs like PRISM.

snorkel 13y ago

If you work at a company that enforces 360 peer reviews you'll get to find out what everyone thinks of you whether you want to or not.

siavosh 13y ago

When I worked at a financial firm, we were regularly reminded not to write any emails that we wouldn't mind being printed on the front page of a newspaper. It's a tough habit to keep in mind, especially for non-work emails, but it's a good litmus test and it's helped me edit some emails before pressing 'send'.

srl 13y ago
Although it's clear what you meant, as you wrote the sentence, it has a somewhat more entertaining. You meant, "that we would mind being printed...". As written, it meshes nicely with my opinion of the financial sector. (/tongue-in-cheek)

atourgates 13y ago

I think the important question no-one seems to be asking is: what's up with the goats? No seriously, for what reason does a NYT contributor/essayist/cartoonist need goats on demand? Also: I'm calling it now, "Uber for Goats" is the next big startup idea.

paganel 13y ago
I'm a programmer, not a NYT contributor, but even so my back-up plan for when I'll no longer be able to earn money from writing code is to start raising goats. It helps that my (living in the countryside) parents used to have a goat until not that long ago, and I could use their place for, well, starting the new endeavor. Back to the article, I'm bummed that the photo of said goats wasn't presented to us.
mjt0229 13y ago
In Seattle, you can rent goats to help take care of pesky invasive vegetation like blackberry bushes. Blackberries sound like a good idea until they take over, and they're very difficult to remove. Goats will eat them, though, so you can rent a small herd of goats and in a few days, the brambles will be eaten back to a level where they can be dug up by the roots. I have no idea whether this was the case in this particular situation.
- homosaur 13y ago
  This is actually very common. You can make an nice chunk of change in the area between KY and SC renting out your goats to destroy kudzu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIoRJG2yDoI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIoRJG2yDoI UK prof points out the obvious proposition, you keep a proper goat/kudzu ratio and it's MONEY TREE
ratsbane 13y ago
That was my first thought too. And second, that if it's possible to rent a herd of goats I would like to do exactly that. I'll figure out a reason after the fact.
danabramov 13y ago

abecedarius 13y ago

When I interviewed at $researchcenter and accidentally got CCed afterwards by $bigname in the thread evaluating me, that was kind of eye-opening. It might be worth asking people now and then for anonymous feedback as a reasonable substitute for that kind of goof. (A search brings up http://www.squidoo.com/anonymous-feedback http://www.squidoo.com/anonymous-feedback which I haven't tried any of.)

lwhi 13y ago

Earlier this evening I received a text message from a someone I felt I was starting to have feelings for. Probably just infatuation, but possibly something more. Another text soon followed; one that was very affectionate. In the 3 minutes between replying and receiving the apologetic '... I'm sorry that wasn't meant for you...' reply, I experienced a full range of emotions from elation to embarrassment — disappointment to denial. It's a funny old life. I found this article at the top of hacker news 5 minutes later. Definitely struck a chord.

robryan 13y ago
Or it was and they are backtracking, although maybe not best to think too much about that.
- 3minus1 13y ago
  or maybe be honest! why not.

sockgrant 13y ago

What's interesting is that it seems like the less you care what people think about you, the more people like you. You become more genuinely you. This makes you unique and interesting. Besides, people can see through someone trying too hard.

WalterBright 13y ago

If you want to have some fun, take a dance class, and then have someone videotape you dancing. It's usually pretty horrifying.

TeMPOraL 13y ago
I went once with a friend to a club and he said that I really stand out of the crowd as a geek. I said: impossible, prove it. He took out his phone and recorded 30 seconds of me dancing. It took me watching just two seconds from this movie to realize he was right. I don't frequent dance floors much since then. Still haven't got over it.
david927 13y ago
A variation is to try run as normally as you can. Be honest; no goofing about. Try to run as normally as anyone can. Then have someone watching you run (again, honestly) exactly as you just ran. It's both hysterical and horrifying, because what you think of as normal is anything but. And it's true for everyone.

incision 13y ago

I like to think I became pretty adept and being unconcerned about other's opinions and honest yet selective about voicing my own relatively early on. Though I was quite happy internally and I do believe it was a net win socially, living that way isn't without its own problems. As a result, I've had to learn to feign back the other way to some degree.

Deejahll 13y ago

The author of this article, Tim Kreider, may be better known by some of us Internet folk as purveyor of the fine web-comic "The Pain": http://thepaincomics.com/ http://thepaincomics.com/

deleted 13y ago

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6d0debc071 13y ago

When I was younger my mother used to tell me that the family that plays together stays together, and that's a pattern I've found repeated more generally in life: I tend to look at my friendship in terms of what people do with me. What activities we engage in together. Interpretation is all well and good, but if you don't really do anything together what are they interpreting? It's a relationship built on dreams and imagination. And what do they really stand to lose in thinking poorly of you? I'm actually constantly amazed by how strong friendships are, and how much people seem to respect each other. It seems like most people are only weakly friends, and that more by necessity than anything else. What interests do you really share with people? It's hard to think of having a really serious disagreement with someone from the office - you sympathise with them even if they'd be bores were you to meet them under other conditions. From my perspective the world seems full of friendships and relationships that people invest heavily in emotionally and yet seem terrifyingly fragile. (Pretty amazing that they don't fall apart more regularly.) Maybe people would be happier and more secure if they paid more attention to the things they enjoy and the people they enjoy them with than being bothered about what just... other people... think of them - I don't know. For myself, I know that I'd be very worried if it turned out that someone, even someone close to me, regularly spent a significant amount of their time just thinking about me. I have my own life and interests, and expect others to have theirs too - being elevated to some ideal of perfection in someone's world is a little creepy.

mustafakidd 13y ago

Ahh - I love Tim Kreider. Find him hilarious, poignant, extremely witty, and intelligent. Mentioned elsewhere, but if it helps drive more people to his site, here it is: http://thepaincomics.com/ http://thepaincomics.com/

Garoof 13y ago
Never heard of him, "The context is that I had rented a herd of goats for reasons that aren’t relevant here and had sent out a mass e-mail with photographs of the goats attached to illustrate that a) I had goats, and b) it was good." but he seems like an awesome guy :D Thanks for the link.

joelhooks 13y ago

I worked at a high end law firm for a couple of years and there was a paralegal that was routinely abused by her boss. She got fed up after seeing an email thread and took it to the managing partner. The managing partner was a really great guy, and his solution was to let her print all of the offending attorney relevant email threads and distribute them to the entire office. It was righteous. It surprised the attorney, as she had her emails published and she was fired on the same day.

lucb1e 13y ago

Just wanted to remark > the dreadful consequence of hitting "reply all" instead of "reply" or "forward." This is why I never write things down that I wouldn't want to end up being read by the subject. Ever. Regardless I'll always go over the To-, CC- and BCC-list three times, but negative (unconstructive) things should be said only by mediums that you can expect to be entirely private. E-mail might be read by others when the colleague would leave the company or something, the sysadmins may snoop it, or he might just be standing by when the recipient receives the message. Or the colleague might make a mistake in sending it. Not that I talk about others that much behind their backs, or at least I hope I don't unconsciously do it too much, but still. Edit: > a staircase you could descend deep underground, in which you heard recordings of all the things anyone had ever said about you, both good and bad. The catch was, you had to pass through all the worst things people had said before you could get to the highest compliments at the very bottom. That sounds incredibly awesome. I'd force myself to descend all the way, and I think it'd be good. Make me realize how bad some things have been and what I can improve, but also make it a rewarding experience in the end that motivates to continue doing the good things and do more good things.

charleslmunger 13y ago

This is basically what happened in the diplomacy world when the State Department cables were leaked.