3 ms·

I'll put this note here. If you are being angry at Apple, Google, Microsoft and others for being dishonest about managing your data, you are being dishonest yo

I'll put this note here. If you are being angry at Apple, Google, Microsoft and others for being dishonest about managing your data, you are being dishonest yourself. Apple does not have army of policemen, courts, flying drones, space programs, military operations all over the world and monopoly on finance, education, roads, telecommunications and other important areas. Government has. Whatever shit government forces other people to do to you is entirely government responsibility. Apple can and will happily operate and be nice to privacy without NSA intrusion. But the nature of NSA is that Apple must comply under threat of violent coercion and also must play whatever game NSA makes them to play (e.g. maintain secrecy of the warrants). If you are angry, your entire anger should be forwarded towards the government — the monopoly of violence masking itself with a "common good" and "social contract" and making nasty things all over the world at your expense. If you are angry at your fellow citizens because of that kind of shit, you are being manipulated into a civil war by people with power.

snitko 13y ago
You libertarians are making me sick, you are so naive thinking the world is black and white. Just because governments kill and torture people, just because they lie to everyone and never keep their promises, just because they put people in jail for victimless crimes and conscript them to be part time accountants while taxing the shit out of them, just because they coerce businesses to cooperate on illegal activities, just because they do all that, doesn't really mean governments can't do nice things. We still need a government, so the only thing we can realistically do is vote better next time and hope the next guy in office is going to be better.
josteink 13y ago
If you are being angry at Apple, Google, Microsoft and others for being dishonest about managing your data, you are being dishonest yourself. I'll admit to being disappointed, but I will say this: I'm not angry. What it all boils down to is trust. Do I trust you to keep my sensitive data secure? Given the recent events and disclosures we've had regarding the exteme over-reach of the US intelligence agencies, it's very easy for me to say: No, I don't. Not anymore. I cannot trust any US-based, US-operated or operated-elsewhere-US-owned subsidiary to keep my data secure. That's not your fault, but it is your problem, because I will be taking my data and business elsewhere. And you cannot regain my trust until your country improves its privacy outlook, so for your own sake, I would start lobbying if you already haven't.
- snitko 13y ago
  Lobbying doesn't solve something like that. For any company, potential problems with a government are more dangerous than losing some of its customers - because government, if it wishes so, can cause this company to lose a lot more money or shut down completely. It's not companies' problem that they are forced to give up your privacy, it is precisely your problem, because you supposedly gave this system of governance legitimacy.
  - josteink 13y ago
    It's not companies' problem that they are forced to give up your privacy, it is precisely your problem, because you supposedly gave this system of governance legitimacy. Just for clarity: I suspect you mistake me for a US citizen. I'm not.
    - snitko 13y ago
      Doesn't matter. Just because some guy revealed US government spies on people doesn't mean it's only the US who do this. Every government does this to the extent of its capabilities (example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5830994 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5830994). It's the system, not some particular government. If you vote, whoever you vote for - you're giving this system legitimacy. Don't be mistaken by thinking some governments are nobler than others. Some are better at appearing nobler or worse at doing bad things. But they all will try and coerce businesses into doing things they want given the opportunity. That's why taking your business out of one jurisdiction to another hardly solves the problem. The source of the problem is the system of governance, not unjust businesses.
- oleganza 13y ago
  And I don't trust Apple either. But I'm not disappointed at them, because I did not and could not have a strict privacy agreement with them in the first place. What I can do, though, apart from keeping my data secure elsewhere, is to recognise the real source of issues and act accordingly. If someone is suggesting a boycott, it should be against the government, not businesses. Especially when businesses do dirty things because they are coerced by the government (e.g. patenting things).

snitko 13y ago

You libertarians are making me sick, you are so naive thinking the world is black and white. Just because governments kill and torture people, just because they lie to everyone and never keep their promises, just because they put people in jail for victimless crimes and conscript them to be part time accountants while taxing the shit out of them, just because they coerce businesses to cooperate on illegal activities, just because they do all that, doesn't really mean governments can't do nice things. We still need a government, so the only thing we can realistically do is vote better next time and hope the next guy in office is going to be better.

josteink 13y ago

If you are being angry at Apple, Google, Microsoft and others for being dishonest about managing your data, you are being dishonest yourself. I'll admit to being disappointed, but I will say this: I'm not angry. What it all boils down to is trust. Do I trust you to keep my sensitive data secure? Given the recent events and disclosures we've had regarding the exteme over-reach of the US intelligence agencies, it's very easy for me to say: No, I don't. Not anymore. I cannot trust any US-based, US-operated or operated-elsewhere-US-owned subsidiary to keep my data secure. That's not your fault, but it is your problem, because I will be taking my data and business elsewhere. And you cannot regain my trust until your country improves its privacy outlook, so for your own sake, I would start lobbying if you already haven't.

snitko 13y ago
Lobbying doesn't solve something like that. For any company, potential problems with a government are more dangerous than losing some of its customers - because government, if it wishes so, can cause this company to lose a lot more money or shut down completely. It's not companies' problem that they are forced to give up your privacy, it is precisely your problem, because you supposedly gave this system of governance legitimacy.
- josteink 13y ago
  It's not companies' problem that they are forced to give up your privacy, it is precisely your problem, because you supposedly gave this system of governance legitimacy. Just for clarity: I suspect you mistake me for a US citizen. I'm not.
  - snitko 13y ago
    Doesn't matter. Just because some guy revealed US government spies on people doesn't mean it's only the US who do this. Every government does this to the extent of its capabilities (example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5830994 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5830994). It's the system, not some particular government. If you vote, whoever you vote for - you're giving this system legitimacy. Don't be mistaken by thinking some governments are nobler than others. Some are better at appearing nobler or worse at doing bad things. But they all will try and coerce businesses into doing things they want given the opportunity. That's why taking your business out of one jurisdiction to another hardly solves the problem. The source of the problem is the system of governance, not unjust businesses.
oleganza 13y ago
And I don't trust Apple either. But I'm not disappointed at them, because I did not and could not have a strict privacy agreement with them in the first place. What I can do, though, apart from keeping my data secure elsewhere, is to recognise the real source of issues and act accordingly. If someone is suggesting a boycott, it should be against the government, not businesses. Especially when businesses do dirty things because they are coerced by the government (e.g. patenting things).