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> This is the world's first commercially available cyborg! No it's not, from the way it's presented, it's more like the world's first organism-enslavement-for-

> This is the world's first commercially available cyborg! No it's not, from the way it's presented, it's more like the world's first organism-enslavement-for-entertainment-kit. Not that I understand that much about cockroaches, but it's hard to deny the ethical issues in taking over control of an otherwise autonomous organism. At first, I thought this might be some kind of joke or campaign to raise awareness of these ethical issues, but it seems that they are actually serious and claim these serve some kind of educational higher purpose: http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Using_Invertebrates_in_Education http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Usin...

akiselev 13y ago
I worked with something similar to this when I was learning neuroscience in a university lab. It's extremely informative and along with a neuron culture can really help you understand what is happening. Other groups have actually done a lot of research into this, going so far as controlling a pigeon a few years ago and proving safety of long term 1+ year neural implants in monkeys and swine, although those were for prosthetic research and were not stimulators. You're not actually taking over the cockroach, you're just sending it fake data in the form of electrical impulses. The cockroach can and does ignore you (habituation) and do its own thing (hence the cage). Other than the invasive surgery, there is little harm done to the cockroach. I agree it's an ethical issue but we need to do research like this and to use instruments like the RoboRoach to educate people. I just wish it was more accessible to students through teachers that could teach them the respect that animal life deserves, instead of out on Kickstarter for anyone to buy for a hoot and a holler.
- WA 13y ago
  Research. In a university. Not on the sidewalk with your iPhone. Their ethical section on Kickstarter is a joke. People apparently said that this is a toy and you turn animals in a toy and the only response is basically:"Well, it's not a toy, because we could give it an extremely complicated title to make it sound like research." Research has the goal of producing some sort of output. A paper, general knowledge, whatever. If people want to do some neuro science research, they should do it in a controlled environment and release a paper afterwards, but not buy a DIY cockroach-antenna-controller-toy for five bucks and call the toy "a research project".
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - bodo_leer 13y ago
      Maybe it is disturbing to me and many others because many people with a 'hacker's mindset' share the romantic idea that technology shouldn't be used to gain power over other lifeforms.
      - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        Romantic is the right word. Any sufficiently capable life-form has power over other life-forms, often very deadly power. What do you think farming, herding, hunting, industrialization, politics, business, and global warming are?
  - akiselev 13y ago
    Most of the stuff I did wasn't for research to publish a paper. I sacrificed those mice to get a better understanding of the natural world all for my own selfish reasons. I did this in an academic lab with a scientist by my side and I knew from the beginning that mice are not "expendable," they are alive. I would have preferred a full holographic and interactive mouse multiphysics simulation I could manipulate to my heart's content, but those don't exist. These types of educational tools can inspire the future scientists and educating the young minds that will do tomorrow what we can't bring ourselves to do today is worth the sacrifice, as long as we take care to not waste life needlessly.
    - milkshakes 13y ago
      I don't know, Alex. It still smells like playing god. Research, formal or informal is at least ostensibly justifiable if it is performed with respect and in the name of furthering individual or collective knowledge. Do you really think that's what's going on here? Doesn't it seem more like it's being marketed as an educational toy? Is it really appropriate to transform other life forms into our toys?
- micheljansen 13y ago
  Good point. Perhaps it's not so much the idea itself that upsets me as the way it is presented. I'm all for promoting research and understanding and I could see a role for this in a classroom, but they way this is being sold is far too toy-like for me. If you can just order an "augmented" cockroach off the internet to mess around with, it becomes a commodity or product and there is not much left to learn from it. I also think that, although you are not actually taking over the body or brain of the cockroach, you are definitely taking over (a good deal of) its perception of reality, however primitive that may be. The fact that cockroaches can learn to ignore the artificial impulses and "escape the Matrix", so to speak, makes me feel only slightly less uncomfortable about doing this on a large scale.
  - akiselev 13y ago
    For some reason the control issue doesn't really phase me as much as the habituation of invasive procedures on animals. At least in school kids don't kill the frogs they dissect; it's no more than a desensitized piece of green beef to them. It's probably because I don't view it as "escaping the matrix." The neural system of a cockroach is relatively simple but they're patching into a very small portion of it. We can't tell what the real side effects are but for all intents and purposes, you're sending it a signal that is equivalent to, say, someone touching your left or right ear. Except the cockroach's sensitivity is dialed up and the antenna are one of their primary navigation sensors so it's more like flashing a big wall to the left or right off your vision. Here you get into issues of complexity and intelligence and I'd rather avoid that. Let's just say that to generate an equivalent response in humans, you'd have to do a massive patchwork on the brain, far more invasive (imo) than what they're doing to the cockroaches. The fact that the cockroach so easily habituates to such massive stimuli should actually tell you a lot about how unphased and how simple its nervous system is. Only in cases of total neuron death/disconnection (spine or neck break ripes the neurons in the spinal cord causing paralysis) can most pain and other "danger sign" signals be totally cut off in humans. For example, you will get acclimated to normal house smells pretty fast, but usually not to smells of sulfur/rotting eggs because of an evolutionary adaptations. The more complex a nervous system is, the more difficult it is to habituate specific stimuli artificially(generally speaking). In the cockroach the neurons connecting the antenna to the rest of the brain are very simple and can be habituated by just stimulating them to release neurotransmitters over and over again. After a while the cockroach just ignores the sense, like you would ignore sight if it was pitch black, instead focusing on sound.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
Sorry, I strongly disagree. Cockroaches don't have the emotions or capabilities to suffer from pain. There is no ethics issue here, except that anyone doing this experiment with children (as co-experimentators, not as subjects, stupid!) should make this point about not hurting higher animals very very clearly and repeatedly.
- hobolobo 13y ago
  One quick way of testing if a creature has "capabilities to suffer from pain" is to put a heat source on them. If they move away from it, they do. There really is an ethical issue here.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > a heat source You're suggesting an experiment with a magnifying glass?
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    So does a moderately smartly designed robot... "suffering from pain" is way more complicated than avoiding heat sources.
    - alan_cx 13y ago
      A robot is simulating. Animals are not.
- shared4you 13y ago
  This article [1] says that cockroaches do experience pain, care for their offspring, form social hierarchies. They can suffer from stress and can die from it, even without injury. Therefore, the ethics issue cannot be ignored. [1]: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html
  - fiblye 13y ago
    I have a hard time considering cockroach control a major ethical issue when cockroaches are considered a major pest and are often killed on sight. I don't see how a few minutes of steering where it goes is substantially worse than stepping on it. I mean, letting a kid play with cockroaches brings about a greater understanding than just telling kids that they all need to be killed. In that way, I'd consider it a good experiment for children akin to catching a caterpillar and watching it make a cocoon. Maybe I'm missing something.
return0 13y ago
Not only humans, wasps take advantage of these poor creatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_cockroach_wasp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_cockroach_wasp While i am a moderate supporter of animal rights, i wouldn't go so far as to claim this is 'enslavement'
coldtea 13y ago
>No it's not, from the way it's presented, it's more like the world's first organism-enslavement-for-entertainment-kit. Still a cyborg. >Not that I understand that much about cockroaches, but it's hard to deny the ethical issues in taking over control of an otherwise autonomous organism. Ethical issues of taking over control of an "organism" we usually stomp upon without second thought, or spray with poisonous gas to get rid of?

akiselev 13y ago

I worked with something similar to this when I was learning neuroscience in a university lab. It's extremely informative and along with a neuron culture can really help you understand what is happening. Other groups have actually done a lot of research into this, going so far as controlling a pigeon a few years ago and proving safety of long term 1+ year neural implants in monkeys and swine, although those were for prosthetic research and were not stimulators. You're not actually taking over the cockroach, you're just sending it fake data in the form of electrical impulses. The cockroach can and does ignore you (habituation) and do its own thing (hence the cage). Other than the invasive surgery, there is little harm done to the cockroach. I agree it's an ethical issue but we need to do research like this and to use instruments like the RoboRoach to educate people. I just wish it was more accessible to students through teachers that could teach them the respect that animal life deserves, instead of out on Kickstarter for anyone to buy for a hoot and a holler.

WA 13y ago
Research. In a university. Not on the sidewalk with your iPhone. Their ethical section on Kickstarter is a joke. People apparently said that this is a toy and you turn animals in a toy and the only response is basically:"Well, it's not a toy, because we could give it an extremely complicated title to make it sound like research." Research has the goal of producing some sort of output. A paper, general knowledge, whatever. If people want to do some neuro science research, they should do it in a controlled environment and release a paper afterwards, but not buy a DIY cockroach-antenna-controller-toy for five bucks and call the toy "a research project".
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - bodo_leer 13y ago
    Maybe it is disturbing to me and many others because many people with a 'hacker's mindset' share the romantic idea that technology shouldn't be used to gain power over other lifeforms.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      Romantic is the right word. Any sufficiently capable life-form has power over other life-forms, often very deadly power. What do you think farming, herding, hunting, industrialization, politics, business, and global warming are?
- akiselev 13y ago
  Most of the stuff I did wasn't for research to publish a paper. I sacrificed those mice to get a better understanding of the natural world all for my own selfish reasons. I did this in an academic lab with a scientist by my side and I knew from the beginning that mice are not "expendable," they are alive. I would have preferred a full holographic and interactive mouse multiphysics simulation I could manipulate to my heart's content, but those don't exist. These types of educational tools can inspire the future scientists and educating the young minds that will do tomorrow what we can't bring ourselves to do today is worth the sacrifice, as long as we take care to not waste life needlessly.
  - milkshakes 13y ago
    I don't know, Alex. It still smells like playing god. Research, formal or informal is at least ostensibly justifiable if it is performed with respect and in the name of furthering individual or collective knowledge. Do you really think that's what's going on here? Doesn't it seem more like it's being marketed as an educational toy? Is it really appropriate to transform other life forms into our toys?
micheljansen 13y ago
Good point. Perhaps it's not so much the idea itself that upsets me as the way it is presented. I'm all for promoting research and understanding and I could see a role for this in a classroom, but they way this is being sold is far too toy-like for me. If you can just order an "augmented" cockroach off the internet to mess around with, it becomes a commodity or product and there is not much left to learn from it. I also think that, although you are not actually taking over the body or brain of the cockroach, you are definitely taking over (a good deal of) its perception of reality, however primitive that may be. The fact that cockroaches can learn to ignore the artificial impulses and "escape the Matrix", so to speak, makes me feel only slightly less uncomfortable about doing this on a large scale.
- akiselev 13y ago
  For some reason the control issue doesn't really phase me as much as the habituation of invasive procedures on animals. At least in school kids don't kill the frogs they dissect; it's no more than a desensitized piece of green beef to them. It's probably because I don't view it as "escaping the matrix." The neural system of a cockroach is relatively simple but they're patching into a very small portion of it. We can't tell what the real side effects are but for all intents and purposes, you're sending it a signal that is equivalent to, say, someone touching your left or right ear. Except the cockroach's sensitivity is dialed up and the antenna are one of their primary navigation sensors so it's more like flashing a big wall to the left or right off your vision. Here you get into issues of complexity and intelligence and I'd rather avoid that. Let's just say that to generate an equivalent response in humans, you'd have to do a massive patchwork on the brain, far more invasive (imo) than what they're doing to the cockroaches. The fact that the cockroach so easily habituates to such massive stimuli should actually tell you a lot about how unphased and how simple its nervous system is. Only in cases of total neuron death/disconnection (spine or neck break ripes the neurons in the spinal cord causing paralysis) can most pain and other "danger sign" signals be totally cut off in humans. For example, you will get acclimated to normal house smells pretty fast, but usually not to smells of sulfur/rotting eggs because of an evolutionary adaptations. The more complex a nervous system is, the more difficult it is to habituate specific stimuli artificially(generally speaking). In the cockroach the neurons connecting the antenna to the rest of the brain are very simple and can be habituated by just stimulating them to release neurotransmitters over and over again. After a while the cockroach just ignores the sense, like you would ignore sight if it was pitch black, instead focusing on sound.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

Sorry, I strongly disagree. Cockroaches don't have the emotions or capabilities to suffer from pain. There is no ethics issue here, except that anyone doing this experiment with children (as co-experimentators, not as subjects, stupid!) should make this point about not hurting higher animals very very clearly and repeatedly.

hobolobo 13y ago
One quick way of testing if a creature has "capabilities to suffer from pain" is to put a heat source on them. If they move away from it, they do. There really is an ethical issue here.
- davidw 13y ago
  > a heat source You're suggesting an experiment with a magnifying glass?
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  So does a moderately smartly designed robot... "suffering from pain" is way more complicated than avoiding heat sources.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    A robot is simulating. Animals are not.
shared4you 13y ago
This article [1] says that cockroaches do experience pain, care for their offspring, form social hierarchies. They can suffer from stress and can die from it, even without injury. Therefore, the ethics issue cannot be ignored. [1]: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html
- fiblye 13y ago
  I have a hard time considering cockroach control a major ethical issue when cockroaches are considered a major pest and are often killed on sight. I don't see how a few minutes of steering where it goes is substantially worse than stepping on it. I mean, letting a kid play with cockroaches brings about a greater understanding than just telling kids that they all need to be killed. In that way, I'd consider it a good experiment for children akin to catching a caterpillar and watching it make a cocoon. Maybe I'm missing something.

return0 13y ago

Not only humans, wasps take advantage of these poor creatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_cockroach_wasp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_cockroach_wasp While i am a moderate supporter of animal rights, i wouldn't go so far as to claim this is 'enslavement'

coldtea 13y ago

>No it's not, from the way it's presented, it's more like the world's first organism-enslavement-for-entertainment-kit. Still a cyborg. >Not that I understand that much about cockroaches, but it's hard to deny the ethical issues in taking over control of an otherwise autonomous organism. Ethical issues of taking over control of an "organism" we usually stomp upon without second thought, or spray with poisonous gas to get rid of?