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RoboRoach: Control a cockroach with a smartphone.

66 points by sabalaba 13y ago

gadders 13y ago
Sounds like it only works for a brief while anyway: Learning and Memory: After a few minutes the cockroach will stop responding to the RoboRaoch microstimulation. Why? The brain learns and adapts. That is what brains are designed to do. You can measure the time to adaptation for various stimulation frequencies. TBH, I'd squash a cockroach in a second if I saw one in my kitchen, but this just feels...wrong.
jlengrand 13y ago
Sometimes, I'm afraid of what can be posted on kickstarter :).
akiselev 13y ago
Does PETA or the Animal Liberation Front care about cockroaches? I ask this question half in jest, but I kind of have a sick feeling about a Kickstarter project for invasively implanting neurostimulators into an animal for people's entertainment[1]. I'm a religious supporter of animal testing for scientific progress and I've done much worse (mice instead of cockroaches) but always in an academic setting where everyone took the life of the animal seriously[2]. Is this just an irrational and emotional response to this being done outside of an academic setting? I know it's just cockroaches, but... [1] I mean, how many people will see this and think "Oh I'll teach my kid neuroscience" instead of "OMG LOOK ITS A CYBORG ROACH" Edit: [2] Clarification, everyone in the lab I was in respected the life of the test animals and went quite far sometimes to make sure they were "comfortable." Although there was usually a somber mood when we had to euthanize an animal.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- akiselev 13y ago
  I've read some of the comments and the project creators obviously aren't callous about it. They claim that it actually helps students get a respect for the cockroach beyond that of a pest. An interesting and great result if true. I'm going to go ahead and back this despite my ethical concerns. The stuff coming up in biotech (even stuff that's already here and quite widely implemented, i.e. in vitro zygote selection) is much scarier from an ethics standpoint. If this Kickstarter gets more attention it could help drive a very fruitful discussion.
quaunaut 13y ago
The ethics of this is actually terrifying. On the one hand, this is unbelievably cool, and a really interesting way of getting more people into this kind of technology. On the other hand, we're controlling a living thing like it's a damned RC car.
- chao- 13y ago
  I agree with you, both in your dismay and wonder, but also pose a question: At what decreasing level of complexity is something still "living", but no longer subject to the ethical concerns from this not-exactly-direct control? Insects are often neural networks of (relatively) straightforward response to stimuli. Ants for example [1], react to harmful stimuli, but feel no pain in the debilitating, emotional-trauma-inducing manner that we associate with the word "pain". And a huge chunk of what governs an ant's life is response to environment chemicals, particularly pheromones produced by other ants. Would it be the same level of control thing if we released micro-doses of known ant hormones in front of them, to prod them into particular actions? Seems pretty similar, and you could even rig it up so that they release from a box that sat on the ant's back. Going lower, protozoa and protophyta are even more obviously "bags of chemicals that respond to other chemicals in the environment". Would controlling them via chemical releases be equally an issue? The real question, it seems, is where do we draw the line and say "Life on this side, we don't mess with you. Life on this other side, tough shit we're going to screw with you nine ways to sunday because it's fu--I mean because science!" [1] I'm not discounting the complexity of an ant's nervous system here, just pointing it out in relative terms to larger insects and invertebrates.
  - asciimo 13y ago
    We can put a safety net on the slippery slope by drawing the line at Animalia.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    None of that matters. Its about motivation. Why one would do something. Killing cockroaches in a domestic setting, where shock, fear, disgust, etc take over in an instant, is different from deciding to remote control one for fun. Fair enough from a pure research POV, where ethics and welfare are discussed and addressed, and there is a reasonable research goal, but for some individual at home, for fun?
micheljansen 13y ago
> This is the world's first commercially available cyborg! No it's not, from the way it's presented, it's more like the world's first organism-enslavement-for-entertainment-kit. Not that I understand that much about cockroaches, but it's hard to deny the ethical issues in taking over control of an otherwise autonomous organism. At first, I thought this might be some kind of joke or campaign to raise awareness of these ethical issues, but it seems that they are actually serious and claim these serve some kind of educational higher purpose: http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Using_Invertebrates_in_Education http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Usin...
- akiselev 13y ago
  I worked with something similar to this when I was learning neuroscience in a university lab. It's extremely informative and along with a neuron culture can really help you understand what is happening. Other groups have actually done a lot of research into this, going so far as controlling a pigeon a few years ago and proving safety of long term 1+ year neural implants in monkeys and swine, although those were for prosthetic research and were not stimulators. You're not actually taking over the cockroach, you're just sending it fake data in the form of electrical impulses. The cockroach can and does ignore you (habituation) and do its own thing (hence the cage). Other than the invasive surgery, there is little harm done to the cockroach. I agree it's an ethical issue but we need to do research like this and to use instruments like the RoboRoach to educate people. I just wish it was more accessible to students through teachers that could teach them the respect that animal life deserves, instead of out on Kickstarter for anyone to buy for a hoot and a holler.
  - WA 13y ago
    Research. In a university. Not on the sidewalk with your iPhone. Their ethical section on Kickstarter is a joke. People apparently said that this is a toy and you turn animals in a toy and the only response is basically:"Well, it's not a toy, because we could give it an extremely complicated title to make it sound like research." Research has the goal of producing some sort of output. A paper, general knowledge, whatever. If people want to do some neuro science research, they should do it in a controlled environment and release a paper afterwards, but not buy a DIY cockroach-antenna-controller-toy for five bucks and call the toy "a research project".
alegen 13y ago
Showing this article on a board filled with hackers who value free speech and free will more than anything else is a bad idea. Doesn't matter if it is a cockroach, a rat, a rabbit or a human being. I do not agree with giving 10 year-olds this "toy". That cockroach (no matter how disgusting it may be for some) is a living thing! The ethical aspects of this project should me taken more seriously and not just "OMG cool gadget buy it".
- RaphiePS 13y ago
  So far, all of the comments are against it on ethical grounds.
- leohutson 13y ago
  I don't have any ethical concerns about this toy, but I have killed and eaten animals, used their hides for clothing, and even kept them trapped in bowls and cages purely for my own amusement. It would seem pretty ridiculous to be upset over this if you do any of those things.
  - alegen 13y ago
    Quote: "even kept them trapped in bowls and cages purely for my own amusement." Well, I`m just not that kind of person :) Later edit: the things you list are completely unrelated to making a living organism do something -without its consent-.
- rdouble 13y ago
  Ethically, what is the difference between controlling a cockroach through direct stimulation and controlling a dog through the usual combination of behavioral manipulation and physical restraints?
  - andyhmltn 13y ago
    Because I believe you aren't completely in control of the dog. Just like you aren't completely control of another human when using conversational techniques to make them do something. You wouldn't be able to manipulate a dog into taking its own life, but with this cockroach you would against its will.
disputin 13y ago
Can these be customised for recording Bilderberg meetings and the like?
bionerd 13y ago
I don't know if it's just because I'm a biologist but I find this absolutely disgusting. Every living thing is valuable no matter how it looks or how "lowly" it is, even goddamn cockroaches. I'm not saying these kinds of experiments don't happen in "real" science, of course they do! But to present it like its fun to enslave a creature like that just for entertainment purposes? This is the worst possible way to educate people (and especially kids!) about the beauty of life and respect to nature.
- morphics 13y ago
  My thoughts exactly. Turning a living creature into a plaything and masquerading it as educational is just sick. It degrades the creature, and it degrades the science.
  - johnchristopher 13y ago
    I shall add it also degrades human beings when doing it "for fun is" disguised as "a science experiment". I don't know if it's the case here and I am comfortable seeing this kind of things done in a classroom. I hope there are more ways to interact with the electronics than an iphone app though.
Geee 13y ago
I would love to see the project other way around: extend the cockroaches capabilities by placing it as a pilot controlling a larger robot/vehicle. Make artificial antennas/sensors in the vehicle and connect the stimulus to cockroaches antennas.
muyuu 13y ago
I think this has a place in research, but commercially? Also, I wouldn't have kids play with this for a number of reasons.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
There is no ethical question. Cockroaches are neurologically incapable of suffering from pain, and human compassion can't deal with billions of the little critters. That said, you can feel compassion towards roaches you keep as pet. For example I wouldn't use the species they are using in this video, I'd prefer bigger ones that also can't procreate in your household beyond their cage... The roaches survive these experiments. It's less harm than being eaten by predators...
- thoughtcriminal 13y ago
  That's a lie, and worse yet, it's a lie to justify the inexpressibly cruel treatment of a life form. Congratulations, you may be less human than the coakroach is.
- michaelgrafl 13y ago
  You either grant other living entities dignity, or you don't. Says more about you than how those living things perceive the world around them.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >You either grant other living entities dignity, or you don't. Who said it's a blanket grant? You grant SOME other entities dignity.
thoughtcriminal 13y ago
This is a terribly cruel thing to do to another life form. It's better to be kind than clever, but this is neither. It's cruel.
steeve 13y ago
Came in the comments to share my disgust. I'm glad I'm not the only one disturbed by this.
hartator 13y ago
IMHO, I don't understand the comments about ethical stuff about cockroaches. If it can help some students to get interested in Neuroscience, even only one student, it's worth it. Maybe this student will make a breakthrough later and improve lives of dozens. Maybe because of this stupid little project. Anyway when you still have "human" slavery in the world, you should feel ackward about thinking of the morality of torturing cockroaches.
pyvek 13y ago
I'm surprised to see that so many people are concerned about ethics of controlling a cockroach. I would like to hear what your opinions are on animal farming and killing in the food industry. Or even killing a cockroach vs controlling it.
- chmike 13y ago
  Sure, this is a good question. But are really we talking about the same thing ? An iPhone app to control a cockroach and animal farming to produce food ? Why an iPhone app, BTW ?
  - pyvek 13y ago
    I realize that its not the same thing but I'm raising the other issue because both of them concern the subject of animal treatments. And why not an iPhone app? Hackers don't need a reason do something new. A simple reason I can think of is to demonstrate that this is possible and also get people interested in the field so that more research is done. I would very much like to see computers directly connected to human brain and I/O being done on it in the future.
- chmike 13y ago
  Sure, this is a good question. But are we really talking about the same thing ? An iPhone app to control a cockroach and animal farming to produce food ? Why an iPhone app, BTW ?
chmike 13y ago
By reading this I can't stop myself to confuse the app user as the cockroach himself. Consider it seen from Apple perspective: who is controlling who ? The other question I ask myself is if this is just another one of those "business" or is this really a contribution to the progress of humanity or science ?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
freedomback 13y ago
This is cruel treatment of a life form and the commercialization of a terrible and unethical experiment. You can help report this cruelty to the Humane Society in Huron Valley now by calling (734)661-3512 or filing an online report: http://www.hshv.org/site/PageNavigator/cruelty/report.html#.Ub7lOZy0REw http://www.hshv.org/site/PageNavigator/cruelty/report.html#....
venkasub 13y ago
I am more afraid of a roach dying due to a faulty logic or becoming a "The Fly" and then flaying me! :)
bodo_leer 13y ago
Copy right infringement? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roboroach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roboroach Japanese Robo-Roach from 1997: http://www.wireheading.com/roboroach/ http://www.wireheading.com/roboroach/ Paper behind a pay wall: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4471-1580-9_38.pdf http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4471-15...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Lapsa 13y ago
Roachus im-PEER-ee-oh!
donohoe 13y ago
"After a few minutes the cockroach will stop responding to the RoboRaoch microstimulation." Ethically dubious and a waste of money
chris_wot 13y ago
This sounds, frankly, appalling. I would report them to the RSPCA in Australia. This sounds like it could make the cockroach suffer.
nakedrobot2 13y ago
I know this works on Cockroaches, but can I connect it to my landlady? There should be fewer ethical issues as well, as she has no soul and can't feel any pain.

66 points by sabalaba 13y ago

Sounds like it only works for a brief while anyway: Learning and Memory: After a few minutes the cockroach will stop responding to the RoboRaoch microstimulation. Why? The brain learns and adapts. That is what brains are designed to do. You can measure the time to adaptation for various stimulation frequencies. TBH, I'd squash a cockroach in a second if I saw one in my kitchen, but this just feels...wrong.

jlengrand 13y ago

Sometimes, I'm afraid of what can be posted on kickstarter :).

akiselev 13y ago

Does PETA or the Animal Liberation Front care about cockroaches? I ask this question half in jest, but I kind of have a sick feeling about a Kickstarter project for invasively implanting neurostimulators into an animal for people's entertainment[1]. I'm a religious supporter of animal testing for scientific progress and I've done much worse (mice instead of cockroaches) but always in an academic setting where everyone took the life of the animal seriously[2]. Is this just an irrational and emotional response to this being done outside of an academic setting? I know it's just cockroaches, but... [1] I mean, how many people will see this and think "Oh I'll teach my kid neuroscience" instead of "OMG LOOK ITS A CYBORG ROACH" Edit: [2] Clarification, everyone in the lab I was in respected the life of the test animals and went quite far sometimes to make sure they were "comfortable." Although there was usually a somber mood when we had to euthanize an animal.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
akiselev 13y ago
I've read some of the comments and the project creators obviously aren't callous about it. They claim that it actually helps students get a respect for the cockroach beyond that of a pest. An interesting and great result if true. I'm going to go ahead and back this despite my ethical concerns. The stuff coming up in biotech (even stuff that's already here and quite widely implemented, i.e. in vitro zygote selection) is much scarier from an ethics standpoint. If this Kickstarter gets more attention it could help drive a very fruitful discussion.

quaunaut 13y ago

The ethics of this is actually terrifying. On the one hand, this is unbelievably cool, and a really interesting way of getting more people into this kind of technology. On the other hand, we're controlling a living thing like it's a damned RC car.

chao- 13y ago
I agree with you, both in your dismay and wonder, but also pose a question: At what decreasing level of complexity is something still "living", but no longer subject to the ethical concerns from this not-exactly-direct control? Insects are often neural networks of (relatively) straightforward response to stimuli. Ants for example [1], react to harmful stimuli, but feel no pain in the debilitating, emotional-trauma-inducing manner that we associate with the word "pain". And a huge chunk of what governs an ant's life is response to environment chemicals, particularly pheromones produced by other ants. Would it be the same level of control thing if we released micro-doses of known ant hormones in front of them, to prod them into particular actions? Seems pretty similar, and you could even rig it up so that they release from a box that sat on the ant's back. Going lower, protozoa and protophyta are even more obviously "bags of chemicals that respond to other chemicals in the environment". Would controlling them via chemical releases be equally an issue? The real question, it seems, is where do we draw the line and say "Life on this side, we don't mess with you. Life on this other side, tough shit we're going to screw with you nine ways to sunday because it's fu--I mean because science!" [1] I'm not discounting the complexity of an ant's nervous system here, just pointing it out in relative terms to larger insects and invertebrates.
- asciimo 13y ago
  We can put a safety net on the slippery slope by drawing the line at Animalia.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  None of that matters. Its about motivation. Why one would do something. Killing cockroaches in a domestic setting, where shock, fear, disgust, etc take over in an instant, is different from deciding to remote control one for fun. Fair enough from a pure research POV, where ethics and welfare are discussed and addressed, and there is a reasonable research goal, but for some individual at home, for fun?

micheljansen 13y ago

> This is the world's first commercially available cyborg! No it's not, from the way it's presented, it's more like the world's first organism-enslavement-for-entertainment-kit. Not that I understand that much about cockroaches, but it's hard to deny the ethical issues in taking over control of an otherwise autonomous organism. At first, I thought this might be some kind of joke or campaign to raise awareness of these ethical issues, but it seems that they are actually serious and claim these serve some kind of educational higher purpose: http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Using_Invertebrates_in_Education http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Usin...

akiselev 13y ago
I worked with something similar to this when I was learning neuroscience in a university lab. It's extremely informative and along with a neuron culture can really help you understand what is happening. Other groups have actually done a lot of research into this, going so far as controlling a pigeon a few years ago and proving safety of long term 1+ year neural implants in monkeys and swine, although those were for prosthetic research and were not stimulators. You're not actually taking over the cockroach, you're just sending it fake data in the form of electrical impulses. The cockroach can and does ignore you (habituation) and do its own thing (hence the cage). Other than the invasive surgery, there is little harm done to the cockroach. I agree it's an ethical issue but we need to do research like this and to use instruments like the RoboRoach to educate people. I just wish it was more accessible to students through teachers that could teach them the respect that animal life deserves, instead of out on Kickstarter for anyone to buy for a hoot and a holler.
- WA 13y ago
  Research. In a university. Not on the sidewalk with your iPhone. Their ethical section on Kickstarter is a joke. People apparently said that this is a toy and you turn animals in a toy and the only response is basically:"Well, it's not a toy, because we could give it an extremely complicated title to make it sound like research." Research has the goal of producing some sort of output. A paper, general knowledge, whatever. If people want to do some neuro science research, they should do it in a controlled environment and release a paper afterwards, but not buy a DIY cockroach-antenna-controller-toy for five bucks and call the toy "a research project".

alegen 13y ago

Showing this article on a board filled with hackers who value free speech and free will more than anything else is a bad idea. Doesn't matter if it is a cockroach, a rat, a rabbit or a human being. I do not agree with giving 10 year-olds this "toy". That cockroach (no matter how disgusting it may be for some) is a living thing! The ethical aspects of this project should me taken more seriously and not just "OMG cool gadget buy it".

RaphiePS 13y ago
So far, all of the comments are against it on ethical grounds.
leohutson 13y ago
I don't have any ethical concerns about this toy, but I have killed and eaten animals, used their hides for clothing, and even kept them trapped in bowls and cages purely for my own amusement. It would seem pretty ridiculous to be upset over this if you do any of those things.
- alegen 13y ago
  Quote: "even kept them trapped in bowls and cages purely for my own amusement." Well, I`m just not that kind of person :) Later edit: the things you list are completely unrelated to making a living organism do something -without its consent-.
rdouble 13y ago
Ethically, what is the difference between controlling a cockroach through direct stimulation and controlling a dog through the usual combination of behavioral manipulation and physical restraints?
- andyhmltn 13y ago
  Because I believe you aren't completely in control of the dog. Just like you aren't completely control of another human when using conversational techniques to make them do something. You wouldn't be able to manipulate a dog into taking its own life, but with this cockroach you would against its will.

disputin 13y ago

Can these be customised for recording Bilderberg meetings and the like?

bionerd 13y ago

I don't know if it's just because I'm a biologist but I find this absolutely disgusting. Every living thing is valuable no matter how it looks or how "lowly" it is, even goddamn cockroaches. I'm not saying these kinds of experiments don't happen in "real" science, of course they do! But to present it like its fun to enslave a creature like that just for entertainment purposes? This is the worst possible way to educate people (and especially kids!) about the beauty of life and respect to nature.

morphics 13y ago
My thoughts exactly. Turning a living creature into a plaything and masquerading it as educational is just sick. It degrades the creature, and it degrades the science.
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  I shall add it also degrades human beings when doing it "for fun is" disguised as "a science experiment". I don't know if it's the case here and I am comfortable seeing this kind of things done in a classroom. I hope there are more ways to interact with the electronics than an iphone app though.

Geee 13y ago

I would love to see the project other way around: extend the cockroaches capabilities by placing it as a pilot controlling a larger robot/vehicle. Make artificial antennas/sensors in the vehicle and connect the stimulus to cockroaches antennas.

muyuu 13y ago

I think this has a place in research, but commercially? Also, I wouldn't have kids play with this for a number of reasons.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

There is no ethical question. Cockroaches are neurologically incapable of suffering from pain, and human compassion can't deal with billions of the little critters. That said, you can feel compassion towards roaches you keep as pet. For example I wouldn't use the species they are using in this video, I'd prefer bigger ones that also can't procreate in your household beyond their cage... The roaches survive these experiments. It's less harm than being eaten by predators...

thoughtcriminal 13y ago
That's a lie, and worse yet, it's a lie to justify the inexpressibly cruel treatment of a life form. Congratulations, you may be less human than the coakroach is.
michaelgrafl 13y ago
You either grant other living entities dignity, or you don't. Says more about you than how those living things perceive the world around them.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >You either grant other living entities dignity, or you don't. Who said it's a blanket grant? You grant SOME other entities dignity.

thoughtcriminal 13y ago

This is a terribly cruel thing to do to another life form. It's better to be kind than clever, but this is neither. It's cruel.

steeve 13y ago

Came in the comments to share my disgust. I'm glad I'm not the only one disturbed by this.

hartator 13y ago

IMHO, I don't understand the comments about ethical stuff about cockroaches. If it can help some students to get interested in Neuroscience, even only one student, it's worth it. Maybe this student will make a breakthrough later and improve lives of dozens. Maybe because of this stupid little project. Anyway when you still have "human" slavery in the world, you should feel ackward about thinking of the morality of torturing cockroaches.

pyvek 13y ago

I'm surprised to see that so many people are concerned about ethics of controlling a cockroach. I would like to hear what your opinions are on animal farming and killing in the food industry. Or even killing a cockroach vs controlling it.

chmike 13y ago
Sure, this is a good question. But are really we talking about the same thing ? An iPhone app to control a cockroach and animal farming to produce food ? Why an iPhone app, BTW ?
- pyvek 13y ago
  I realize that its not the same thing but I'm raising the other issue because both of them concern the subject of animal treatments. And why not an iPhone app? Hackers don't need a reason do something new. A simple reason I can think of is to demonstrate that this is possible and also get people interested in the field so that more research is done. I would very much like to see computers directly connected to human brain and I/O being done on it in the future.
chmike 13y ago
Sure, this is a good question. But are we really talking about the same thing ? An iPhone app to control a cockroach and animal farming to produce food ? Why an iPhone app, BTW ?

chmike 13y ago

By reading this I can't stop myself to confuse the app user as the cockroach himself. Consider it seen from Apple perspective: who is controlling who ? The other question I ask myself is if this is just another one of those "business" or is this really a contribution to the progress of humanity or science ?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

freedomback 13y ago

This is cruel treatment of a life form and the commercialization of a terrible and unethical experiment. You can help report this cruelty to the Humane Society in Huron Valley now by calling (734)661-3512 or filing an online report: http://www.hshv.org/site/PageNavigator/cruelty/report.html#.Ub7lOZy0REw http://www.hshv.org/site/PageNavigator/cruelty/report.html#....

venkasub 13y ago

I am more afraid of a roach dying due to a faulty logic or becoming a "The Fly" and then flaying me! :)

bodo_leer 13y ago

Copy right infringement? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roboroach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roboroach Japanese Robo-Roach from 1997: http://www.wireheading.com/roboroach/ http://www.wireheading.com/roboroach/ Paper behind a pay wall: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4471-1580-9_38.pdf http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4471-15...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Lapsa 13y ago

Roachus im-PEER-ee-oh!

donohoe 13y ago

"After a few minutes the cockroach will stop responding to the RoboRaoch microstimulation." Ethically dubious and a waste of money

chris_wot 13y ago

This sounds, frankly, appalling. I would report them to the RSPCA in Australia. This sounds like it could make the cockroach suffer.

nakedrobot2 13y ago

I know this works on Cockroaches, but can I connect it to my landlady? There should be fewer ethical issues as well, as she has no soul and can't feel any pain.