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There's a difference in knowing how the sausage is made. I'm certainly not naive enough to think that governments aren't always spying on each other's diplomats

by cgshaw 13y ago

There's a difference in knowing how the sausage is made. I'm certainly not naive enough to think that governments aren't always spying on each other's diplomats, however the appearance that the UK and US went to pretty crazy lengths to keylog and tricks G20 diplomats into giving up intel out in the public could have some pretty negative implications for diplomatic discourse down the road.

glurgh 13y ago
Oh, agreed that it's quite unhelpful and Snowden revealing details about such activities is a pretty terrible idea. On the other hand, such revelations in general aren't all that new or rare - the most recent one probably being about US spying on UN diplomats just a couple of years ago. Beside light spattering of egg on some faces and a bit of ritualized indignant posturing, though, this sort of thing doesn't seem to cause much lasting damage to the global system of international diplomacy, probably because everyone knows everyone is doing it.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  First, I suspect that Snowden revealing these details is not that harmful. The fact is, I think everyone would expect that everyone keeps track of everyone's diplomats. That's just the way the world works. Additionally, hacking into network backbones in China? Is there anybody out there that was aware of the NSA's activities over the last few decades that doesn't immediately assume that they do? Or is this news to those who didn't read about the NSA tapping into undersea cables back in the 1990's? In other words, the details Snowden has given are largely harmless affirmations of what everyone probably knows already. They don't cause significant harm to our diplomatic relations. They don't cause significant harm to our intelligence. I suspect given his moves so far, he agrees with my assessment above, so the question is, what is he doing with them? I don't think that is a hard question to answer. He's making public what those in power have assumed is the case for a long time in order to send signals to all sides that he knows a lot more than he is saying. In essence he's upping the ante regarding any indictment and extradition request. He's sending a threat to the US: Try to extradite me and maybe I will spill your secrets, real ones, not the ones hidden in plain view I have been talking about so far. He's also sending a message to China: I know enough to be valuable. Time will tell what happens. However this follows on "I chose Hong Kong because of their tradition of free speech and rule of law." This totally follows his strategy of pitting the US against China, and Hong Kong against both.
  - glurgh 13y ago
    Well, I think I already agreed in the post you're replying to that these sort of revelations are not particularly harmful to any of the state actors involved. They are, though, tremendously harmful to him and his purported cause - to the point that I have a very difficult time seeing this as some part of an intelligent, well-considered strategy. Should he ever end up in a US court, any hope of lenient treatment or something like an eventual presidential commutation or pardon is well out the window - you can't be both a principled defender of civil liberties and a low-grade spy. Worse is the damage to his credibility as a person acting out of conscience - he's handing his detractors a complete gimme and even giving his potential supporters serious pause. In the interview linked, William Binney straight up calls him a traitor and it's pretty tough to portray William Binney as some pliant NSA stooge.

by cgshaw 13y ago

glurgh 13y ago

Oh, agreed that it's quite unhelpful and Snowden revealing details about such activities is a pretty terrible idea. On the other hand, such revelations in general aren't all that new or rare - the most recent one probably being about US spying on UN diplomats just a couple of years ago. Beside light spattering of egg on some faces and a bit of ritualized indignant posturing, though, this sort of thing doesn't seem to cause much lasting damage to the global system of international diplomacy, probably because everyone knows everyone is doing it.

einhverfr 13y ago
First, I suspect that Snowden revealing these details is not that harmful. The fact is, I think everyone would expect that everyone keeps track of everyone's diplomats. That's just the way the world works. Additionally, hacking into network backbones in China? Is there anybody out there that was aware of the NSA's activities over the last few decades that doesn't immediately assume that they do? Or is this news to those who didn't read about the NSA tapping into undersea cables back in the 1990's? In other words, the details Snowden has given are largely harmless affirmations of what everyone probably knows already. They don't cause significant harm to our diplomatic relations. They don't cause significant harm to our intelligence. I suspect given his moves so far, he agrees with my assessment above, so the question is, what is he doing with them? I don't think that is a hard question to answer. He's making public what those in power have assumed is the case for a long time in order to send signals to all sides that he knows a lot more than he is saying. In essence he's upping the ante regarding any indictment and extradition request. He's sending a threat to the US: Try to extradite me and maybe I will spill your secrets, real ones, not the ones hidden in plain view I have been talking about so far. He's also sending a message to China: I know enough to be valuable. Time will tell what happens. However this follows on "I chose Hong Kong because of their tradition of free speech and rule of law." This totally follows his strategy of pitting the US against China, and Hong Kong against both.
- glurgh 13y ago
  Well, I think I already agreed in the post you're replying to that these sort of revelations are not particularly harmful to any of the state actors involved. They are, though, tremendously harmful to him and his purported cause - to the point that I have a very difficult time seeing this as some part of an intelligent, well-considered strategy. Should he ever end up in a US court, any hope of lenient treatment or something like an eventual presidential commutation or pardon is well out the window - you can't be both a principled defender of civil liberties and a low-grade spy. Worse is the damage to his credibility as a person acting out of conscience - he's handing his detractors a complete gimme and even giving his potential supporters serious pause. In the interview linked, William Binney straight up calls him a traitor and it's pretty tough to portray William Binney as some pliant NSA stooge.