6 ms·

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. I don't imagine an "interest in Chinese language and culture" would have anything to do with this decision.

wavefunction 13y ago
He mentioned picking up Mandarin in one of his Ars posts, I think. Not "fiendishly" clever, just apparently more clever than the folks running our intelligence services.
- OstiaAntica 13y ago
  Mandarin is not widely spoken in Hong Kong-- locals speak Cantonese and Mandarin was not taught in school while HK was under British rule.
  - eru 13y ago
    Yes, but lots of people speak Mandarin now, either for doing business with the PRC or because they are PRC immigrants.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    Certainly I know this about Cantonese, but I'm just relating to you what I had read.
- tokenadult 13y ago
  Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) As Confucius said, in one of his most famous take-downs, "始吾於人也、聽其言而信其行、今吾於人也、聽其言而觀其行。At first in dealing with people, I would hear their words and trust their deeds, but now my way of dealing with people is to hear their words and observe their deeds." We'll see what appears about his planning and his view toward China and a lot of other things about him as he continues interaction with news media and the governmental authorities of various governments.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    Time will tell us more about Snowden but I believe his intentions to be primarily towards exposing the surveillance state for American citizens. Its existence as described by his documents is contrary to our guiding principles. I kind of doubt he was too focused on exposing this to the rest of the world but feels that it's a necessary part of what he's doing for his country.
  - yread 13y ago
    > Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) Sorry, if it sounds personal but I have to ask: How do you know he's not proficient and what does your proficiency have to do with it?
    - tokenadult 13y ago
      Sorry, if it sounds personal but I have to ask: How do you know he's not proficient and what does your proficiency have to do with it? I have a basis of knowledge about how language proficiency is defined (the federal government in the United States has a standard rating scale of foreign language proficiency, as do most other countries with an active diplomatic corps and military alliances with other countries) and I know how much time it takes in specialized training programs and in-country to become proficient in Chinese, none of which Snowden has. I would find it more believable that he has some knowledge of Japanese, because Snowden lived in Japan for a while, but he apparently has little knowledge of that language either.
      - yread 13y ago
        > I know how much time it takes in specialized training programs and in-country to become proficient in Chinese wow. Err... aren't there other ways how to learn a language than government sanctioned programs? How about attending lectures in the evenings and a Chinese speaking friend (not that unbelievable in Hawaii).
glurgh 13y ago
I'm not being entirely serious (hard to be, given the little we know) but I'm not being sarcastic, either. Some of Snowden's behaviour has been pretty odd. A variety of interpretations are possible. One is that he's a mastermind media manipulator/intelligence operator/exploiter of immigration laws/meticulous planner of a fugitive. This idea has some traction on HN and outside but I'm pretty skeptical of it. The interpretation that I lean towards, mostly for Occam's razor-ish reasons, is that he's maybe a little bit naive and perhaps doesn't quite know what he's doing. If you care about things like your credibility and being taken seriously you probably don't do things like fib about your salary or suggest the CIA is going to hire triads to have you whacked. If you hope to avoid the reach of the US criminal justice system or intelligence services you probably don't meet, in person, with high-profile US journalists in a Hong Kong hotel carrying a Rubik's cube. You probably don't go to Hong Kong in the first place where your ability to predict your future fate is very limited. And finally, if you hope to represent your prosecution as political and your acts as acts of conscience in defense of civil liberties, you probably don't start divulging operational details of overseas US intelligence operations to foreign governments - they're not related to your stated cause and just land you in much deeper doodoo. Now, it's possible all of this is some diabolically clever ploy/gambit but, personally, I find that a little hard to swallow.
- Jack000 13y ago
  I think the most salient point is that he needed to go to a country where - the US did not have significant influence - could not be strong-armed into giving him up - would cause significant problems if he were taken without consent (or killed outright - not implausible, given the things we've seen in Pakistan) China is a fairly logical choice - it's as far as you can run from the US in geopolitical terms. Hong Kong is just being in China without "being in China".
  - glurgh 13y ago
    Ooof, kind of, sort of, maybe? I can see the argument, at a very high level but I don't think it survives even a cursory examination of the details, which are - by going to HK he's walking into a very convoluted situation the outcome of which neither he nor anyone else can really predict. And he's basically betting that all twists and turns of the various intermediate outcomes will go his way. This seems incredibly risky and not very, well, strategic. I don't think, though, that in the unlikely event he gets Vanunu'd out Hong Kong it would cause significant problems for anyone but him. He also doesn't really face any risk of being killed - whatever one may think of the ethics, legality or quality of targeting of the drone strikes, they do target people involved in a violent, armed conflict with the US - 'enemy combatants' as the USG likes to call them. Snowden is not any sort of enemy combatant.

wavefunction 13y ago

He mentioned picking up Mandarin in one of his Ars posts, I think. Not "fiendishly" clever, just apparently more clever than the folks running our intelligence services.

OstiaAntica 13y ago
Mandarin is not widely spoken in Hong Kong-- locals speak Cantonese and Mandarin was not taught in school while HK was under British rule.
- eru 13y ago
  Yes, but lots of people speak Mandarin now, either for doing business with the PRC or because they are PRC immigrants.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  Certainly I know this about Cantonese, but I'm just relating to you what I had read.
tokenadult 13y ago
Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) As Confucius said, in one of his most famous take-downs, "始吾於人也、聽其言而信其行、今吾於人也、聽其言而觀其行。At first in dealing with people, I would hear their words and trust their deeds, but now my way of dealing with people is to hear their words and observe their deeds." We'll see what appears about his planning and his view toward China and a lot of other things about him as he continues interaction with news media and the governmental authorities of various governments.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  Time will tell us more about Snowden but I believe his intentions to be primarily towards exposing the surveillance state for American citizens. Its existence as described by his documents is contrary to our guiding principles. I kind of doubt he was too focused on exposing this to the rest of the world but feels that it's a necessary part of what he's doing for his country.
- yread 13y ago
  > Snowden is not proficient in Chinese, no way. (I am, by test.) Sorry, if it sounds personal but I have to ask: How do you know he's not proficient and what does your proficiency have to do with it?
  - tokenadult 13y ago
    Sorry, if it sounds personal but I have to ask: How do you know he's not proficient and what does your proficiency have to do with it? I have a basis of knowledge about how language proficiency is defined (the federal government in the United States has a standard rating scale of foreign language proficiency, as do most other countries with an active diplomatic corps and military alliances with other countries) and I know how much time it takes in specialized training programs and in-country to become proficient in Chinese, none of which Snowden has. I would find it more believable that he has some knowledge of Japanese, because Snowden lived in Japan for a while, but he apparently has little knowledge of that language either.
    - yread 13y ago
      > I know how much time it takes in specialized training programs and in-country to become proficient in Chinese wow. Err... aren't there other ways how to learn a language than government sanctioned programs? How about attending lectures in the evenings and a Chinese speaking friend (not that unbelievable in Hawaii).

glurgh 13y ago

I'm not being entirely serious (hard to be, given the little we know) but I'm not being sarcastic, either. Some of Snowden's behaviour has been pretty odd. A variety of interpretations are possible. One is that he's a mastermind media manipulator/intelligence operator/exploiter of immigration laws/meticulous planner of a fugitive. This idea has some traction on HN and outside but I'm pretty skeptical of it. The interpretation that I lean towards, mostly for Occam's razor-ish reasons, is that he's maybe a little bit naive and perhaps doesn't quite know what he's doing. If you care about things like your credibility and being taken seriously you probably don't do things like fib about your salary or suggest the CIA is going to hire triads to have you whacked. If you hope to avoid the reach of the US criminal justice system or intelligence services you probably don't meet, in person, with high-profile US journalists in a Hong Kong hotel carrying a Rubik's cube. You probably don't go to Hong Kong in the first place where your ability to predict your future fate is very limited. And finally, if you hope to represent your prosecution as political and your acts as acts of conscience in defense of civil liberties, you probably don't start divulging operational details of overseas US intelligence operations to foreign governments - they're not related to your stated cause and just land you in much deeper doodoo. Now, it's possible all of this is some diabolically clever ploy/gambit but, personally, I find that a little hard to swallow.

Jack000 13y ago
I think the most salient point is that he needed to go to a country where - the US did not have significant influence - could not be strong-armed into giving him up - would cause significant problems if he were taken without consent (or killed outright - not implausible, given the things we've seen in Pakistan) China is a fairly logical choice - it's as far as you can run from the US in geopolitical terms. Hong Kong is just being in China without "being in China".
- glurgh 13y ago
  Ooof, kind of, sort of, maybe? I can see the argument, at a very high level but I don't think it survives even a cursory examination of the details, which are - by going to HK he's walking into a very convoluted situation the outcome of which neither he nor anyone else can really predict. And he's basically betting that all twists and turns of the various intermediate outcomes will go his way. This seems incredibly risky and not very, well, strategic. I don't think, though, that in the unlikely event he gets Vanunu'd out Hong Kong it would cause significant problems for anyone but him. He also doesn't really face any risk of being killed - whatever one may think of the ethics, legality or quality of targeting of the drone strikes, they do target people involved in a violent, armed conflict with the US - 'enemy combatants' as the USG likes to call them. Snowden is not any sort of enemy combatant.