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What is the moral reasoning behind such agencies? How is it not violating assumed trust between nations for whatever personal/local/domestic gain? I really can

by zxcdw 13y ago

What is the moral reasoning behind such agencies? How is it not violating assumed trust between nations for whatever personal/local/domestic gain? I really can't reason about this suff, so someone help me out here. To me the whole existence of such agencies is borderline immoral.

barry-cotter 13y ago
With enemies really, who cares about the morality? They're out to get you, you're out to get them. With allies if you're both spying on each other you are thoroughly in the verify part of "Trust but verify." A decent intelligence network can give one a much higher level of security in one's allies good intentions. Also, morality? Intelligence agencies? This is realpolitik man. If we assume high level politicians resemble executives they're 20% pstchopaths. The other 80% are also quite capable of reasoning amorally about goals and power.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  I as a foreign citizen do take the morality of intelligence actions and foreign politics quite seriously. As far as my view(which is rather ignorant, hence why I would like to know and discuss more) is concerned, I'd think that some form of international agreement on spying/intelligence gathering should be formed and enforced. For example the NSA hacking to Hong Kong machines should be a criminal offense, and the same should go the other way around. This stuff should really go through the legal system and people should be punished accordingly. Just because it is some form of governmental intelligence agency shouldn't ever put it above the law. As we have seen with the case of NSA, it is used for domestic spying too and nobody really knows for what else.
  - barry-cotter 13y ago
    I'm not American either dude. Your proposed system requires a world government with real powers of enforcement. It is not in the interests of the USA, China, Russia, India, Pakistan or France to do this. Absent wholehearted cooperation by them this cannot happen. If you got all of them on board you might be able to get the rest of the world on board. In the world we live in, and will continue living in until there is a world government there are bad people everywhere and some of them work for other governments, who can and will protect them. This doesn't even touch on the fact that your/my/any human values are not universal, and universal law is about universal enforcement. Whoever wins the last war gets to tell everyone what to do. That's what world government is.
- a3n 13y ago
  "With enemies really, who cares about the morality?" Yeah, fuck 'em, burn the village to the ground.
  - barry-cotter 13y ago
    Indeed this is an accurate statement of the values of many people everywhere. Given sufficiently alien values extermination is the goal. Compare the diversity of legitimate governmental systems in 1900 and now. Democracy is existentially hostile to everything else. And burning the village to the ground is probably a stupid idea, which is a sufficient reason not to do it. But if it can be done and is the most efficient way of achieving the goal there are people doing it. Service to the state, glory to the Race! Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country!
brown9-2 13y ago
The reality is that if every major country is spying on other major countries (and they are), there is no trust to violate because there is no trust to begin with. One would imagine that every country attending a G20 summit would expect to be spied on like this, because they would be doing the same to others.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  Does this somehow make the matter more acceptable on moral grounds though? I think it does not. If a government can't trust another one even when they have all sorts of contracts, policies, treaties, meetings and plans, how on earth should citizens be able to trust them? I think the status quo should be less offensive and competitive and more trustworthy and collaborative. But then again, who would trust a liar, especially in situation where one too would lie?

by zxcdw 13y ago

barry-cotter 13y ago

With enemies really, who cares about the morality? They're out to get you, you're out to get them. With allies if you're both spying on each other you are thoroughly in the verify part of "Trust but verify." A decent intelligence network can give one a much higher level of security in one's allies good intentions. Also, morality? Intelligence agencies? This is realpolitik man. If we assume high level politicians resemble executives they're 20% pstchopaths. The other 80% are also quite capable of reasoning amorally about goals and power.

zxcdw 13y ago
I as a foreign citizen do take the morality of intelligence actions and foreign politics quite seriously. As far as my view(which is rather ignorant, hence why I would like to know and discuss more) is concerned, I'd think that some form of international agreement on spying/intelligence gathering should be formed and enforced. For example the NSA hacking to Hong Kong machines should be a criminal offense, and the same should go the other way around. This stuff should really go through the legal system and people should be punished accordingly. Just because it is some form of governmental intelligence agency shouldn't ever put it above the law. As we have seen with the case of NSA, it is used for domestic spying too and nobody really knows for what else.
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  I'm not American either dude. Your proposed system requires a world government with real powers of enforcement. It is not in the interests of the USA, China, Russia, India, Pakistan or France to do this. Absent wholehearted cooperation by them this cannot happen. If you got all of them on board you might be able to get the rest of the world on board. In the world we live in, and will continue living in until there is a world government there are bad people everywhere and some of them work for other governments, who can and will protect them. This doesn't even touch on the fact that your/my/any human values are not universal, and universal law is about universal enforcement. Whoever wins the last war gets to tell everyone what to do. That's what world government is.
a3n 13y ago
"With enemies really, who cares about the morality?" Yeah, fuck 'em, burn the village to the ground.
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  Indeed this is an accurate statement of the values of many people everywhere. Given sufficiently alien values extermination is the goal. Compare the diversity of legitimate governmental systems in 1900 and now. Democracy is existentially hostile to everything else. And burning the village to the ground is probably a stupid idea, which is a sufficient reason not to do it. But if it can be done and is the most efficient way of achieving the goal there are people doing it. Service to the state, glory to the Race! Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country!

brown9-2 13y ago

The reality is that if every major country is spying on other major countries (and they are), there is no trust to violate because there is no trust to begin with. One would imagine that every country attending a G20 summit would expect to be spied on like this, because they would be doing the same to others.

zxcdw 13y ago
Does this somehow make the matter more acceptable on moral grounds though? I think it does not. If a government can't trust another one even when they have all sorts of contracts, policies, treaties, meetings and plans, how on earth should citizens be able to trust them? I think the status quo should be less offensive and competitive and more trustworthy and collaborative. But then again, who would trust a liar, especially in situation where one too would lie?