5 ms·

Your math is reasonably fair, IMO. That being said, the type of work being done in DC and SF is vastly different. I attended an iOS conference in DC a few month

Your math is reasonably fair, IMO. That being said, the type of work being done in DC and SF is vastly different. I attended an iOS conference in DC a few months ago (I'm based out of NYC) and was shocked at how few "tech company" people were present. Nearly everyone was working for a government agency, a government contractor, or freelancing with a primarily government client-base. Personally I don't think I can do it. Nearly everyone I talked to came from gigantic, monstrous organizations (either private or public) with huge, massive layers of management. I might just die in that environment. At the end of the day, the spiraling cost of living in SF is a serious problem, and one that threatens the well-being of our industry if we can't curb it. Unfortunately, in the city being pro-development is almost as bad as pushing your grandma down the stairs.

ryanSrich 13y ago
This is really the only reasonable dig I've heard against D.C. I guess I was lucky enough to land a public sector job at a software shop that runs much like the hip ones out west. They are here, just not well represented.
- acchow 13y ago
  Have you worked in the bay area?
  - ryanSrich 13y ago
    Physically no. I've telecommuted for a few contracts and the structure of those companies appear to be similar to what I've been exposed to here on the east coast. I would imagine both have their fair share of differences and being there physically is, I'm sure, much different. However I find it hard to believe that the difference is so significant that it warrants surrendering financial gain.
hack_edu 13y ago
Whoa-whoa-whoa hold up. The spiraling cost of rent 'threatens the well-being of our industry?' I say this as an engineer who's worked in the local industry during both booms and as a native-born "local." Sure, perhaps but only just like it does for every other industry besides fancy restaurants and cafes. Rent is too damn high and no one wants to pay it, and we seem to be the only ones who can. But lets get some perspective here. I'm willing to posit that the relative high rent prices has give our industry to greatest boost of all in town [quick edit: for clarification if everyone is pushed out and only tech workers can move in, does that not just create room for more founders? Not at all arguing that wasted money is good]. This city is still the Gold Rush, always has been. People move here with the dream to make a ton of money and have a good time, most likely moving away after <10 years when they get serious about family. This city is fueled by alcohol and general hedonism, which is fun! San Francisco is an awesome place to live, and people want to live in it. Tech workers move in to town and push everyone out, blah, blah, blah -- but its true, for better or for worse. Top talent not only wants to work in the Bay Area, but are also so often willing to throw away everything to live in San Francisco. The Valley down south has been there for half a century, attracting the best and brightest in the world. Its only now, with this Second Boom's influx of new businesses into the City Proper and the realization company-provided motorcoaches to bust the commute, that the tech workers are really pouring into SF. We're the only ones who can afford to live, so we stay here, working more and founding more businesses. If the price continues to go up (mark my words, no more than 30% above now), rather than be threatened, the industry will slowly spread out to the periphery. What is startup-rich Soma was urban blight during the 90's, the periphery. I'd be the first to argue that urban development is good, especially when done effectively (not the conversion of existing rental space into high-HOA condos), and quickly (unlike commercial real estate development in Soma and South Beach). Just realize that we are the kings of this age of this city, and we are the last ones who would be at threat, especially when you can just move East or South and ride the comfy bus in to work. tl;dr Nothing threatens tech but the drying up of capital to be invested in new business. Rent and/or supply is far, far down on the list of even those potential threats to the SF tech industry.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  I disagree. The rising cost of living will have nothing but detrimental impact on startups. When $1m used to buy a year of runway, now it's $2m, and you're not really getting any more for your money, you're just making sure your engineers have a decent roof over their heads. Your theory is sound except for one little problem: the Bay Area's transportation system is fucked. FUCKED. Completely, utterly, irredeemably fucked. BART is a joke, MUNI is like a fevered bad dream, Caltrain woefully inadequate. So yeah, SOMA used to be urban blight, now it's urban blight with a bit of startups mixed in (seriously, go hang out at 6th/Mission for a bit). Rent (both residential and commercial) in SF is exploding, but there no more periphery, because nobody can reasonably get to said periphery. Oakland has been trying to steal some of SF's thunder for years, offering themselves as the more affordable alternative. This will never happen at scale, because of how utterly screwed transportation is. SF is out of space, and there's very little room for it to expand into, because nobody is willing to redevelop land, the the complete fuckery of a transportation network you have prevents effective expansion into anywhere that will let you develop. At some point the cost of living and operating needs to square with reality. At some point a startup board member is going to say "Holy fuck, you pay HOW MUCH for your office?"
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - _pius 13y ago
    Your theory is sound except for one little problem: the Bay Area's transportation system is fucked. FUCKED. Completely, utterly, irredeemably fucked. BART is a joke, MUNI is like a fevered bad dream, Caltrain woefully inadequate. A little hyperbolic, I think.
    - acchow 13y ago
      Bay Area mass transit is far from fucked. There's a lot of infrastructure there that, with minor upgrades, could massively improve the situation. Take BART, for example. Not enough trains. Upgrade the system to support more trains and then BUY MORE TRAINS. Suddenly living in Daly City and commuting to SF is feasible.
nilkn 13y ago
Overall, SF makes me feel like the standard of living for developers is really going down, not up. For all that the startup culture has produced, it has also encouraged lots of people to basically save no money and significantly reduce their living standards all for the sake of "doing a startup." I'm always shocked to hear so many stories of people living in near poverty to work on a startup idea which is, in total honesty, far from amazing. I don't mean to come off the wrong way or as judgmental. But when I think of a software developer in SF, I don't think of someone with a nice house with a backyard. I think of someone in a cramped apartment, probably with roommates.
- ryanSrich 13y ago
  I'm totally generalizing here but I often find that young entrepreneurs, especially those living in or wanting to move into the valley, lack the financial aptitude that it takes to run a profitable business. You also have the engineers moving there that harbor much of the same mentality. This has always puzzled me. It's certainly not the salary as many cities around the country pay more in terms of the relative cost of living. My only thought is that it must be the companies that are headquartered there; which in turn takes a severe lack of financial foresight from said engineer. It's almost like these people don't know how to balance a check book, or rather, they don't care to.
- rahilsondhi 13y ago
  The roommate thing is really annoying. I'm a grown man with a full time job paying $100k+ and I gave to have roommates? That was not in the plan...
  - caniszczyk 13y ago
    Good luck affording a house :)
  - Zhenya 13y ago
    You know, a working spouse can count as a roommate. And think, you can do your grown-man-thang.

ryanSrich 13y ago

This is really the only reasonable dig I've heard against D.C. I guess I was lucky enough to land a public sector job at a software shop that runs much like the hip ones out west. They are here, just not well represented.

acchow 13y ago
Have you worked in the bay area?
- ryanSrich 13y ago
  Physically no. I've telecommuted for a few contracts and the structure of those companies appear to be similar to what I've been exposed to here on the east coast. I would imagine both have their fair share of differences and being there physically is, I'm sure, much different. However I find it hard to believe that the difference is so significant that it warrants surrendering financial gain.

hack_edu 13y ago

Whoa-whoa-whoa hold up. The spiraling cost of rent 'threatens the well-being of our industry?' I say this as an engineer who's worked in the local industry during both booms and as a native-born "local." Sure, perhaps but only just like it does for every other industry besides fancy restaurants and cafes. Rent is too damn high and no one wants to pay it, and we seem to be the only ones who can. But lets get some perspective here. I'm willing to posit that the relative high rent prices has give our industry to greatest boost of all in town [quick edit: for clarification if everyone is pushed out and only tech workers can move in, does that not just create room for more founders? Not at all arguing that wasted money is good]. This city is still the Gold Rush, always has been. People move here with the dream to make a ton of money and have a good time, most likely moving away after <10 years when they get serious about family. This city is fueled by alcohol and general hedonism, which is fun! San Francisco is an awesome place to live, and people want to live in it. Tech workers move in to town and push everyone out, blah, blah, blah -- but its true, for better or for worse. Top talent not only wants to work in the Bay Area, but are also so often willing to throw away everything to live in San Francisco. The Valley down south has been there for half a century, attracting the best and brightest in the world. Its only now, with this Second Boom's influx of new businesses into the City Proper and the realization company-provided motorcoaches to bust the commute, that the tech workers are really pouring into SF. We're the only ones who can afford to live, so we stay here, working more and founding more businesses. If the price continues to go up (mark my words, no more than 30% above now), rather than be threatened, the industry will slowly spread out to the periphery. What is startup-rich Soma was urban blight during the 90's, the periphery. I'd be the first to argue that urban development is good, especially when done effectively (not the conversion of existing rental space into high-HOA condos), and quickly (unlike commercial real estate development in Soma and South Beach). Just realize that we are the kings of this age of this city, and we are the last ones who would be at threat, especially when you can just move East or South and ride the comfy bus in to work. tl;dr Nothing threatens tech but the drying up of capital to be invested in new business. Rent and/or supply is far, far down on the list of even those potential threats to the SF tech industry.

potatolicious 13y ago
I disagree. The rising cost of living will have nothing but detrimental impact on startups. When $1m used to buy a year of runway, now it's $2m, and you're not really getting any more for your money, you're just making sure your engineers have a decent roof over their heads. Your theory is sound except for one little problem: the Bay Area's transportation system is fucked. FUCKED. Completely, utterly, irredeemably fucked. BART is a joke, MUNI is like a fevered bad dream, Caltrain woefully inadequate. So yeah, SOMA used to be urban blight, now it's urban blight with a bit of startups mixed in (seriously, go hang out at 6th/Mission for a bit). Rent (both residential and commercial) in SF is exploding, but there no more periphery, because nobody can reasonably get to said periphery. Oakland has been trying to steal some of SF's thunder for years, offering themselves as the more affordable alternative. This will never happen at scale, because of how utterly screwed transportation is. SF is out of space, and there's very little room for it to expand into, because nobody is willing to redevelop land, the the complete fuckery of a transportation network you have prevents effective expansion into anywhere that will let you develop. At some point the cost of living and operating needs to square with reality. At some point a startup board member is going to say "Holy fuck, you pay HOW MUCH for your office?"
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- _pius 13y ago
  Your theory is sound except for one little problem: the Bay Area's transportation system is fucked. FUCKED. Completely, utterly, irredeemably fucked. BART is a joke, MUNI is like a fevered bad dream, Caltrain woefully inadequate. A little hyperbolic, I think.
  - acchow 13y ago
    Bay Area mass transit is far from fucked. There's a lot of infrastructure there that, with minor upgrades, could massively improve the situation. Take BART, for example. Not enough trains. Upgrade the system to support more trains and then BUY MORE TRAINS. Suddenly living in Daly City and commuting to SF is feasible.

nilkn 13y ago

Overall, SF makes me feel like the standard of living for developers is really going down, not up. For all that the startup culture has produced, it has also encouraged lots of people to basically save no money and significantly reduce their living standards all for the sake of "doing a startup." I'm always shocked to hear so many stories of people living in near poverty to work on a startup idea which is, in total honesty, far from amazing. I don't mean to come off the wrong way or as judgmental. But when I think of a software developer in SF, I don't think of someone with a nice house with a backyard. I think of someone in a cramped apartment, probably with roommates.

ryanSrich 13y ago
I'm totally generalizing here but I often find that young entrepreneurs, especially those living in or wanting to move into the valley, lack the financial aptitude that it takes to run a profitable business. You also have the engineers moving there that harbor much of the same mentality. This has always puzzled me. It's certainly not the salary as many cities around the country pay more in terms of the relative cost of living. My only thought is that it must be the companies that are headquartered there; which in turn takes a severe lack of financial foresight from said engineer. It's almost like these people don't know how to balance a check book, or rather, they don't care to.
rahilsondhi 13y ago
The roommate thing is really annoying. I'm a grown man with a full time job paying $100k+ and I gave to have roommates? That was not in the plan...
- caniszczyk 13y ago
  Good luck affording a house :)
- Zhenya 13y ago
  You know, a working spouse can count as a roommate. And think, you can do your grown-man-thang.