4 ms·

If they were obtained without a warrant, wouldn't they be inadmissible as evidence, especially if they were being used in an inculpatory rather than exculpatory

If they were obtained without a warrant, wouldn't they be inadmissible as evidence, especially if they were being used in an inculpatory rather than exculpatory manner?

aqme28 13y ago
Unless I'm mistaken (IANAL), they can still be used as exculpatory evidence.
paulsutter 13y ago
The government lawyers' opinion is that they can later get a warrant to access the data, long after it was recorded (see the whole discussion on "collect" meaning to take a book off the shelf and read it). They also seem to think it's ok to datamine the recordings as long as it's done anonymously.
- mpyne 13y ago
  And in fact I'm willing to bet that explains the divergence of opinion that the Senator noted in the linked story. He probably was told in his classified briefing that NSA could record and collect phone calls without a warrant. Mueller, on the other hand, would be talking about actually tapping into that data, which would need a warrant. I'm not sure I buy the argument that you can record a phone call without a warrant just because it's using VoIP or some equivalent instead of a physical wiretap, but it does sound similar to the other arguments that have been made to collect data for later analysis by warrant if necessary.
ihsw 13y ago
There seems to be a lot of legal niggling regarding that, obtaining the data itself is perfectly well within all legal avenues -- including indexing it and organizing it into whatever manner -- however querying the resultant database is quite restricted (with apparently many levels of oversight).
georgemcbay 13y ago
How quaint, assuming there would be a trial with evidence and everything. What makes all of this horrifying instead of merely troubling to me is the corresponding destruction of the idea of a writ of habeas corpus.
josephlord 13y ago
It doesn't need to be used as evidence. They can threaten to reveal things and blackmail you, leak to the press to discredit you or use it to know when and where to raid so that they can catch you read handed. If they do go to court it gives them a list of witnesses a and the ability to blackmail them into cooperation.

If they were obtained without a warrant, wouldn't they be inadmissible as evidence, especially if they were being used in an inculpatory rather than exculpatory manner?

aqme28 13y ago

Unless I'm mistaken (IANAL), they can still be used as exculpatory evidence.

paulsutter 13y ago

The government lawyers' opinion is that they can later get a warrant to access the data, long after it was recorded (see the whole discussion on "collect" meaning to take a book off the shelf and read it). They also seem to think it's ok to datamine the recordings as long as it's done anonymously.

mpyne 13y ago
And in fact I'm willing to bet that explains the divergence of opinion that the Senator noted in the linked story. He probably was told in his classified briefing that NSA could record and collect phone calls without a warrant. Mueller, on the other hand, would be talking about actually tapping into that data, which would need a warrant. I'm not sure I buy the argument that you can record a phone call without a warrant just because it's using VoIP or some equivalent instead of a physical wiretap, but it does sound similar to the other arguments that have been made to collect data for later analysis by warrant if necessary.

ihsw 13y ago

There seems to be a lot of legal niggling regarding that, obtaining the data itself is perfectly well within all legal avenues -- including indexing it and organizing it into whatever manner -- however querying the resultant database is quite restricted (with apparently many levels of oversight).

georgemcbay 13y ago

How quaint, assuming there would be a trial with evidence and everything. What makes all of this horrifying instead of merely troubling to me is the corresponding destruction of the idea of a writ of habeas corpus.

josephlord 13y ago

It doesn't need to be used as evidence. They can threaten to reveal things and blackmail you, leak to the press to discredit you or use it to know when and where to raid so that they can catch you read handed. If they do go to court it gives them a list of witnesses a and the ability to blackmail them into cooperation.