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Can you elaborate? How do you feel PyCharm removes control? Does it setup your environment in a way which prevents customization?

by codex 13y ago

JanezStupar 13y ago
It doesn't. It doesn't do anything to your project. It does offer awesome VCS integration features. It does offer a powerful debugger. And it gives you an JavaScript IDE that doesn't suck. VIM just cant handle modern JS code. PyCharm also gives you PEP8 and JSLint support. And its intelligent autocomplete is awesome and makes programming in dynamically typed languages a breeze. OP just couldn't be bothered to give the product a chance. While he is smugly juggling dozens of shell instances I let the IDE do the work for me. Jetbrains is making the best IDE around.
- Myrmornis 13y ago
  Smug attack accepted, I deserved that :) I tried to address some points related to your reply in my comment above.
Myrmornis 13y ago
It's not that it makes things impossible, it's that it inserts a complex layer between me and the stuff I'm working with. That means the set of possible explanations for something not working correctly is expanded. With pycharm, in addition to the inevitable reasons one always has to consider, I additionally have to consider: - I used the pycharm UI incorrectly -- I didn't tell it to do what I intended to tell it to do. - pycharm is not configured for my project correctly - there is a bug in pycharm Testing and debugging software is hard enough; it's best to choose a work environment that minimizes the number of possible explanations for what has gone wrong and that means running `manage.py whatever` directly from a shell. I can see that for certain classes of problems one would be confident that the IDE was working correctly, and you could debug in pycharm with perhaps greater power than using pdb in a shell. But if there's a possibility that the problem is infrastructural -- e.g. with your test runner, or the test invocation -- and not actually in the application code, then you'd want to work with python/django directly, not with a complex GUI application. In the projects I work on, that possibility is always there :)
- skybrian 13y ago
  You can use an IDE and still run and test your code from the command line, and this is often a good idea when it's unclear what the IDE is doing. The IDE still serves as a better editor.
  - Myrmornis 13y ago
    You could. But mastering just one of those interfaces is already quite an overhead.
    - skybrian 13y ago
      Well, if you plan on using the command line then you don't need to learn to run programs in the IDE. You can just learn the other stuff. But there's no doubt about it, learning to use an IDE is an investment. It's not needed for "hello world" but pays off when using complicated API's or refactoring a large application. And nearly all the API's we use these days are complicated; languages that don't have large standard libraries aren't used much. The irony is that people who don't use IDE's spend large amounts of time configuring their text editors. How much of an investment is it to learn vi?

Can you elaborate? How do you feel PyCharm removes control? Does it setup your environment in a way which prevents customization?

by codex 13y ago

Can you elaborate? How do you feel PyCharm removes control? Does it setup your environment in a way which prevents customization?

JanezStupar 13y ago

It doesn't. It doesn't do anything to your project. It does offer awesome VCS integration features. It does offer a powerful debugger. And it gives you an JavaScript IDE that doesn't suck. VIM just cant handle modern JS code. PyCharm also gives you PEP8 and JSLint support. And its intelligent autocomplete is awesome and makes programming in dynamically typed languages a breeze. OP just couldn't be bothered to give the product a chance. While he is smugly juggling dozens of shell instances I let the IDE do the work for me. Jetbrains is making the best IDE around.

Myrmornis 13y ago
Smug attack accepted, I deserved that :) I tried to address some points related to your reply in my comment above.

Myrmornis 13y ago

It's not that it makes things impossible, it's that it inserts a complex layer between me and the stuff I'm working with. That means the set of possible explanations for something not working correctly is expanded. With pycharm, in addition to the inevitable reasons one always has to consider, I additionally have to consider: - I used the pycharm UI incorrectly -- I didn't tell it to do what I intended to tell it to do. - pycharm is not configured for my project correctly - there is a bug in pycharm Testing and debugging software is hard enough; it's best to choose a work environment that minimizes the number of possible explanations for what has gone wrong and that means running `manage.py whatever` directly from a shell. I can see that for certain classes of problems one would be confident that the IDE was working correctly, and you could debug in pycharm with perhaps greater power than using pdb in a shell. But if there's a possibility that the problem is infrastructural -- e.g. with your test runner, or the test invocation -- and not actually in the application code, then you'd want to work with python/django directly, not with a complex GUI application. In the projects I work on, that possibility is always there :)

skybrian 13y ago
You can use an IDE and still run and test your code from the command line, and this is often a good idea when it's unclear what the IDE is doing. The IDE still serves as a better editor.
- Myrmornis 13y ago
  You could. But mastering just one of those interfaces is already quite an overhead.
  - skybrian 13y ago
    Well, if you plan on using the command line then you don't need to learn to run programs in the IDE. You can just learn the other stuff. But there's no doubt about it, learning to use an IDE is an investment. It's not needed for "hello world" but pays off when using complicated API's or refactoring a large application. And nearly all the API's we use these days are complicated; languages that don't have large standard libraries aren't used much. The irony is that people who don't use IDE's spend large amounts of time configuring their text editors. How much of an investment is it to learn vi?