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Naomi Wolf: My Creeping Concern That The NSA Leaker Is Not Who He Purports To Be

110 points by ferdo 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago
Open speculation about intelligence programs is a little bit like numerology. If you start looking for patterns to fit narratives to, you'll find them.
- e3pi 13y ago
  No Such Agency --> New Spotlight Agency is a 180 degrees turn-about. Why? She offers: "...From the standpoint of the police state and its interests — why have a giant Big Brother apparatus spying on us at all times — unless we know about it?" More than tinhat?
  - tptacek 13y ago
    No.
    - e3pi 13y ago
      When I was an undergraduate, the Mathematics Department cork board of announcements had an NSA(No Such Agency era) brochure, describing a program labelled something like `OCREA'. I do not remember it clearly, but its intent was soliciting academics to preview their work with the NSA before publishing, or possibly, it was an offer for grant funding. What struck me, and why I remember it, was the freehand watercolor/acrylic bluish/dark painting graphic of the entire cover page, Showing a long straight road/landing-strip(?) made of rectangular tiles, receding into a horizon's vanishing point of a low horizontal mountain range. To one side, we see a small green budding plant surfacing through some broken tiles. Suggesting to me: "A weed surfacing through a sidewalk needs to be snipped."
      - rayiner 13y ago
        Considering the historical role of the NSA, I'd imagine it was more a reference to hope and freedom bursting out of oppression. People who work at these agencies do not think they are evil, they think they are contributing to ensuring American freedom and prosperity.
        MisterWebz 13y ago
        "Well, first of all, let me take you—the population at NSA, about 85 percent of them, I think, are ISTJs on the Myers-Briggs scale, and they’re very strong introverts, you know? They have a very focused job to do. Breaking a crypt system or something is a very focused effort. You—it’s really intense. So it’s really something that’s really compatible with their character. And so, when something happens and they see things happening to people who get involved, like myself or others, they get afraid. And being introverts, they even go further as—further into themselves and staying isolated. So, that’s—that’s the primary character of people. And the others, the others are probably part of it and believe that it’s the correct thing to do. And they don’t try to find a reasonable, constitutionally acceptable, legally acceptable way to do the—to achieve the objectives that they want. They simply felt that they had to go to the far—the other far side of the spectrum and get as much as they can about everybody they can." - William Binney
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- antiterra 13y ago
  Maybe they're trying to trick us into thinking that they're trying to trick us so that they can trick us by trying to trick us into thinking we're being tricked!
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Shit.
  - pasbesoin 13y ago
    Buffalo buffalo buffalo... Oh, never mind. ---- P.S. Ok, for the downvoters: I tend to engage in humor on HN in very limited amounts. (Yes, the way things "used to be", here.) I knew the risks in making my comment. But, the parent reminded me of the linguistic (and logical) tangle we can start entering in discussing conditionals upon conditionals. Which in turn reminded me of this other linguistic tangle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffal... That's the context of my remark.
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    Really, they've just tricked us into not having enough levels of recursion.
  - Breakthrough 13y ago
    Sounds like Daniel Suarez' novel Daemon. TL,DR: Programmer dies but his program manipulates the world after his death, then the US government spreads word that the program is a hoax, so later in the novel most people disbelieve that such a program can even exist (because the government "disproved" it!), hindering any chance that society would even believe that something like this existed, let alone was possible. I just wanted to throw it out there to illustrate the parallels of the plot in the novel with the current things happening right now...
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    Never argue with a Sicilian when death is on the line!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  This actually describes intelligence based on overly-broad data collection as well.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    It can, yes. But the narratives NSA comes up with are falsifiable; that's the function of the agencies who are NSA's customers.
e3pi 13y ago
crypto adj. Secret; covert. gon suff. A figure having a specified kind or number of angles. Governments, Corporations and Media are out of control. These prominent components of our society are increasingly driven by hypocrisy, corruption and greed. They have never been more powerful than they are today, and their ability to shape the outcome of events goes mostly unnoticed by the public at large. The Cryptogon refers to the hidden structure underlying and interconnecting the political, economic and perception management systems currently in operation on this planet. When John Ralston Saul states that, “In reality, we are today in the midst of a theology of pure power—power born of structure, not of dynasty or arms,” the “structure” he is referring to is what I am calling the Cryptogon. http://www.cryptogon.com/?page_id=2 http://www.cryptogon.com/?page_id=2
CognitiveLens 13y ago
This is an interesting take on the situation, although it's one that I would normally dismiss as tin-foil hat thinking. Given the source and clear reluctance in making these assertions, however, it's definitely a perspective worth including in the discussion. If Wolf is right, it certainly seems like a risky move on the part of the NSA (or related organization) - one that could easily backfire, since for the most part it's just fomenting more negative sentiment toward government in general. The shock of these "revelations" will subside and the country will likely go back to business as usual (as it does after most shocking revelations"), but with even less trust in its leadership. As for discouraging whistleblowing, they have so far missed the mark - for the most part Snowden has come across as pretty difficult to hate, even for people who disagree with his actions.
streptomycin 13y ago
This would be better on /r/conspiracy than Hacker News.
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  > This would be better on /r/conspiracy than Hacker News. Shallow reasoning ... check No understanding of subject matter ... check Usage of pseudo psychological nonsense instead of any hard evidence ... check
rsync 13y ago
I'm suspicious too. The Hong Kong part is what irks me - I cannot imagine making that choice, given a world of asylum options. His line of reasoning is borderline incomprehensible. Add that to the concerted effort of the powers that be to paint China as our cyber-terror-enemy ... and he is aligned with China now, vis-a-vis HK ... you know very well that j6p already refers to him as "that nerd that defected to China".
- sramsay 13y ago
  I agree. This is the weirdest part of this whole thing. Surely there are a dozen countries less inclined to want to extradite Snowden to the U.S. for the grounds stated. Why not flee to a country that is a weak (but not too weak) ally of the U.S., thoroughly outraged by the PRISM program, and which doesn't have an extradition treaty that could possibly be construed as permitting extradition under the stated terms (as Hong Kong arguably does with the U.S.). I'm not try to defend Wolf. Just sayin' . . .
  - at-fates-hands 13y ago
    I actually thought the weirdest thing - how was a guy who was a high school dropout get a gig at the NSA? Even small businesses won't hire someone unless they have a four year degree. I know its possible for developers to get a job based on being self taught. I highly, highly, doubt a government agency like the NSA would hire someone with such sketchy credentials. My other real concern was brought up in the article. Once you're about to feel the full brunt of the United States Government coming after you, it's usually standard procedure to lawyer up. Considering this guy hasn't done so indicates he's not scared of whatever bad guys are coming after him. Which means, either he's really stupid, or he has no reason to be afraid.
    - sramsay 13y ago
      "I highly, highly, doubt a government agency like the NSA would hire someone with such sketchy credentials." Absolutely. It's boilerplate on job descriptions for Federal jobs of any consequence. You can't answer the phones without having a four-year degree.
hobs 13y ago
Let's have more articles of pure speculation. I am interested in the topic of the NSA spying program, but it feels like I am reading post after post of articles that are just reinterpretations of facts that were already presented and interpreted numerous times. People have already insinuated that Snowden is working for the chinese/russians/whoever you care to name, and its an interesting theory, but we need some evidence.
dguido 13y ago
More here: "5 Ways NSA leaker Edward Snowden's story isn't holding up." Nearly every statement in his video interview is vastly exaggerated. http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-isnt-115500971.html http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-stor...
- MattyRad 13y ago
  I would advise against going to this link, or even posting the link. It is bad form to give such poor articles any traffic or credibility, and posting the link will up its ranking in search engines.
  - munin 13y ago
    citizen censorship is so ironic
    - jrockway 13y ago
      This comment brought to you by Duff Beer.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  Sounds like you didn't watch the video.
- nickodell 13y ago
  >Snowden overstated his salary... by a lot It's possible that Snowden was including reimbursements, a medical/dental plan, a pension, a company car, life insurance, that sort of thing. BAH may also be reporting his pay after taxes. >He reportedly left his home on May 1 Why does this matter? Has he ever claimed that he went straight from his house to HK? >Snowden didn't have 'authority' to wiretap anybody/He might not have had the ability to do so, either How do we know? If he had root access to a mail server, or a single-sign-on server, he could have leveraged that into access to much more of the network. You're not supposed to send passwords over email, but people do it all the time. I don't think he's saying that he could have also gotten away with it, merely that he had the capability to, in contrast to earlier NSA testimony that the NSA did not have the ability to collect those communications. >Snowden's résumé is fishy Why does it matter that Snowden is a dropout? He clearly worked for BAH. The only question is what his capacity was there: >and that the terms Snowden used to describe his agency positions did not match internal job descriptions. What does this mean? Does it mean, literally, that the job title that he had didn't exactly match what he said in the interview? Why aren't they stating what his actual job title was? Privacy concerns?
mtgx 13y ago
Greenwald was talking to him since January or February. So yeah, I think he had time to prepare what he'd say in front of a camera for a few minutes in this historic moment...Wouldn't you do the same? Or would you rather sound like a blabbering idiot?
- cwisecarver 13y ago
  He worked for Booz-Allen for three months. June - Three = March. So ... Greenwald and him were just chatting about the weather for a month or two?
  - waterlesscloud 13y ago
    He had worked for other intel contractors prior to that, quite possibly in exactly the same job.
  - brown9-2 13y ago
    This is one curious bit of the story that I am surprised other journalists haven't yet harped on Greenwald to reveal. For instance, did GG know if Snowden planned to take the BAH job for the purposes of taking documents?
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      Is it known that the source of the docs is exclusively from BAH? I'm not convinced you can get such attention from a high profile journalist simply by claiming that you have Top Secret access and that you plan to leak some documents to him.
      - brown9-2 13y ago
        What high-profile journalist would ignore a chance to look at or publish Top Secret documents?
        fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
cickpass_broken 13y ago
> He is not struggling for words, or thinking hard, as even bright, articulate whistleblowers under stress will do. Rather he appears to be transmitting whole paragraphs smoothly, without stumbling. When I watched this, the assumption I made was that he was carefully prepared to take on this massive endeavour – better to be prepared for the consequences and media than to foil the effort. But, really, we have no fucking idea.
calhoun137 13y ago
This article is complete and utter bullshit. Disregarding the obviously silly idea that he is a fraud because he is organized and well spoken, her basic point seems to be that since he doesn't have a lawyer present during media interviews, then Snowden is an actor basically playing a role in a news story created by the NSA whose purpose is to scare people from becoming whistle blowers. Give me a break.
- fleitz 13y ago
  Snowden is seems like a student of machiavelli far more than american idealism. He has an objective and is doing the best job he can to make that objective happen. Which would contrast highly with most whistleblowers who believe that doing the right thing will result in their objective happening.
  - discostrings 13y ago
    Perhaps he looked at the results of other recent whistleblowers "doing the right thing" and realized that releasing information without the right choreography would end in no attention from the media or public about the issue and a ton of trouble for himself? In an ideal world, he could release the information and each individual would engage with it, analyze it, make determinations about it, and judge whether or not it is important. In our world, if he had followed the path of previous whistleblowers and given the information to a newspaper and returned to his house in Hawaii, he likely would have been immediately arrested, and the newspaper would have published very limited yet broad information in a single article in a way that would be easy for the rest of the media to dismiss. Then the character attacks would have overwhelmed the story. Like it or not, presentation is important. Snowden has claimed his objective is making sure people know about these programs so they can decide about them. That objective, and his path thus far, seems perfectly in line with American idealism.
    - GHFigs 13y ago
      In an ideal world, he could release the information and each individual would engage with it, analyze it, make determinations about it, and judge whether or not it is important. Thats this world, minus the people that keep "choreographing" things so they have the "right" impact.
staunch 13y ago
It's probably a good idea to question everything, but this analysis is so weak it's laughable.
vivin 13y ago
There is way too much speculation in this article. Actually, that's all there is.
michaelfeathers 13y ago
Posted on Facebook. :) Waiting for the article that says that Naomi Wolf may not be who she purports to be.
- robotresearcher 13y ago
  Facebook post since no respectable editor would print such silly stuff.
  - ferdo 13y ago
    Bad metric. I recall respectable editors pumping the "WMDs IN IRAQ!" story quite frequently once upon a time, for instance.
    - omonra 13y ago
      Ugh.
gcb0 13y ago
So what we claims is that he is a Goldstein in the making? That would be interesting. Is there any studies on how those figures come into being? I bet there are a few real Goldstein in history. Do they start already protraited as failures or at some point they have the popular opinion on their side?
skore 13y ago
a) Or he might just be a regular Nerd who cares about details. b) Or he might just be a regular Nerd who took a long time to think about this stuff. c) Or he might just be a regular Nerd with the typical emotional detachment from what he is doing while still being deeply intellectual invested. d) Pure speculation without any weighting. e) What? f) Ah good, it's not like he addressed this point in particular. g) Meta Speculation. h) Well that doesn't even begin to make sense. It's funny - she actually has a point. But the point can stand on its own, all the points she is clearly making up actually serve to cheapen that point.
- alex_doom 13y ago
  Basically it's a really nice compliment. In a roundabout way. You're smart enough to look at history, prepare, be presentable and don't even need a lawyer. BOOM.
  - davidcuddeback 13y ago
    Reminds me of the populists who tried to enact change in ancient Rome. One of them would call for reform and end up murdered. The next one would find protection before calling for reform, but ended up murdered anyway. Each successive would-be reformer learned from the mistakes of his predecessors and changed his strategy accordingly. A couple of the reformers whose names I can remember are Tiberius Gracchus [1] and his brother Gaius Gracchus [2]. One of my favorite podcasts has an excellent six-part series on the fall of the western Roman empire, which introduced me to this very topic [3]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus [3] http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php?page=hharchive http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php?page=hharchive
nsns 13y ago
By why do all these pseudo-lefty celebs (Wolf, Maher, etc.) make it a point to smear Snowden? They seem to be doing it of their own volition.
- chipotle_coyote 13y ago
  There's two kinds of conspiracy theories, I think. There's the ones that actually exist and end up getting exposed in a few years: the Pentagon Papers, the Iran-Contra scandal, the trumping up of "Iraq has WMD," and (apparently) now PRISM. Then there are the theories like "9/11 was an inside job" and "JFK was killed by the CIA," ones that would require an order of magnitude more people to do things an order of magnitude more reprehensible and keep perfectly quiet for many, many more years, yet make slip-ups that only amateur sleuths can find (or at least dare to report on) -- all for claimed ends which are, to say the least, dubious. There are common psychological threads to these theories (the Illuminati run the world, but we know the truth and that gives us some power back), but the most fascinating thing about them is that you literally can't disprove them: they're not making falsifiable claims. Scant or contradictory evidence just shows how successful the conspirators have been; lack of mainstream reporting just shows how the media is part of it. The thing is (to get back to your actual musing), once you get into that mindset, it's turtles all the way down. It's not really a left/right thing, it's a "fringe" thing -- I suspect the more you feel that your voice is shut out of the mainstream discussion, the more likely you are to suspect it's because the Powers That Be don't want to hear your voice. You may be right, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because they can't face the holy light of your truth. Even if she hasn't gone full Alex Jones, Naomi Wolf has often seemed to me to be flirting with that kind of conspiracy mindset. I can't speak to Maher (I can't find any comments he's made on Snowden), but he seems to have a different set of biases, not as much conspiracy-based as a kind of reflexive skepticism.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    re:9/11, the official story is basically that building 7 collapsed because of burning office furniture. You believe that? "once you get into that mindset, it's turtles all the way down", huh? But sure, why even bother to actually investigate the catastrophy such huge changes are based on, when you can just ship off the debris and constantly talk about living in a "post 9/11 world"... those conspiracy theorists would ignore and and all investigations or scientific facts anyway, for circular reasons°. So let's not have any of those, it will help. Instead let's have presidents pose on coffins wrapped in flags, shuffling our feet in moments of silence as decent citizens would. ° They're on the fringe for reasons that don't interest, not really, because they're on the fringe. Where they are because that's where they are. Not that you or anyone knows this, but this topic "fascinates" you so much that you "suspect" it. That's either hardcore trolling or awkward irony, you decide.
lazyjones 13y ago
She has a few good and a few weak points there. Especially the last point is important and some peculiar reactions to this scandal can be better explained with it - for example, the odd way the Congress seems to show no interest in the mass-surveillance, as if they knew that it's a fabricated story to trigger the panopticon effect. On the other hand, I wonder what the NSA is doing in all those huge buildings, if not spying on all Americans and the rest of the world. Perhaps they're empty? Not very likely, but it would make a great story.
subsystem 13y ago
That people are focusing on the wrong things are nicely illustrated by people claiming him to be an amateur and too professional at the same time.
rollo_tommasi 13y ago
This is how James Jesus Angleton drove himself insane.
darkpicnic 13y ago
(yawn)
mark_l_watson 13y ago
+1 I at least give her credit for thinking outside of the box. It is OK to speculate and look at things from a different perspective, even if you might be wrong.
danbmil99 13y ago
I think it is more likely that he has the backing of a loose confederation of anonymous civil disobedients, young & media savvy, and they took some time to develop the story in a way they thought would achieve maximum impact. I admit the expressive neo-feminist pole dancing gf seems a bit gratuitous.
fbru02 13y ago
People still listen to Naomi Wolf? I was really wanting to like the "Shock Doctrine" but being from South America, I found the history she portrayed of SA to be totally inaccurate.
- paulsmith 13y ago
  That's Naomi Klein.
smutticus 13y ago
On one hand she speculates that Snowden isn't a genuine whistleblower beacuse he is too organized(a, b, c). Then she speculates that Snowden isn't a genuine whistleblower because he is not organized.(f, h) Which is it? Seriously, this article does more to decredit Namoi Wolf than anything else. I had more respect for her prior to reading this piece. I could continue to rip this article apart but I'm hungry and need to cook dinner.
jabbernotty 13y ago
I was hoping to find a well-reasoned story here, but it isn't there. I don't find her reasoning to be logical, and she keeps calling things strange or abnormal based on either a single anecdote, or none at all.
plg 13y ago
tl;dr : if you don't like the message (or don't like the idea of believing the message to be true), then you attack the messenger
surrealize 13y ago
Wolf thinks Snowden is fake because he talks about all the bad things that might happen to him as a result of his leaking. She thinks that he's drawing attention to those bad things on purpose, to scare other potential whistleblowers. But Greenwald was the one drawing attention to that stuff, by asking Snowden what he expected the US government to do to him. Snowden wasn't volunteering that on his own; it was Greenwald trying to play up the human-interest angle.
Myrmornis 13y ago
Greenwald has been in contact with the film maker Poitras for over 1 year. Presumably it was Greenwald not Snowden who introduced her. But surely this Wolf person knows that, if she's a media type who hangs out with Assange's entourage. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/ http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det...
ferdo 13y ago
"In The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Wolf takes a historical look at the rise of fascism, outlining 10 steps necessary for a fascist group (or government) to destroy the democratic character of a nation-state and subvert the social/political liberty previously exercised by its citizens: 1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy 2. Create secret prisons where torture takes place 3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens 4. Set up an internal surveillance system 5. Harass citizens' groups 6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release 7. Target key individuals 8. Control the press 9. Treat all political dissidents as traitors 10. Suspend the rule of law The book details how this pattern was implemented in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and elsewhere, and analyzes its emergence and application of all the 10 steps in American political affairs since the September 11 attacks." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf#The_End_of_America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf#The_End_of_America
gnu8 13y ago
How much does the NSA pay for this?
return0 13y ago
The only thing that can undermine his credibility is if the US government comes up with indisputable proof that NONE of what he said was true. Her arguments are a complete red herring
blendergasket 13y ago
To me this is one of those weird things. Basically all of this is an act of faith on our part. We either believe he's legit or we don't. We can't know what kind of weird psy-ops the government is pulling on us. I choose to believe that this is real but I can't know for sure and for all I know I could be part of some bigger, darker plot orchestrated by who knows who. Not to get all metaphysical but the more that's hidden from us the less we're able to know what in the world is ever going on. It's weird being a human.
davidcuddeback 13y ago
I think she has some interesting points, but they don't necessarily stand up to scrutiny. Occam's Razor says that we should be skeptical of conspiracy theories and require a lot more evidence than a celebrity's hunch. On the issue of hiring a filmmaker, a little investigation suggests that Greenwald might have had a prior connection with her. The filmmaker's name is Laura Poitras [1]. There's a New York Times article covering her involvement in making the video [2]. In April 2012, Greenwald wrote an article about the U.S. detaining her at the border [3]. I think it's reasonable to believe that Greenwald may have had a prior connection with her. Also, as I mentioned in another comment [4], history shows that reformers learn from their predecessors' successes and mistakes. The way he orchestrated the release of the documents could be a symptom of his learning from previous whistle-blowers. It's unfortunate that the best part of her post was at the very end. Regardless of the merits of the rest of her post, I think her last statement is worth remembering: "But do consider that in Eastern Germany, for instance, it was the fear of a machine of surveillance that people believed watched them at all times — rather than the machine itself — that drove compliance and passivity. From the standpoint of the police state and its interests — why have a giant Big Brother apparatus spying on us at all times — unless we know about it?" [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/business/media/filmmaker-linked-to-leaks-has-her-own-stories-to-tell.html?hp&_r=1& http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/business/media/filmmaker-l... [3] http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/ http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5885959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5885959
- garry 13y ago
  That last point would be incredibly salient it if it weren't for the fact that East Germany had no claim to legitimacy via the will of the people or a Constitution that guaranteed life, liberty and and the pursuit of happiness. It had legitimacy because it was the state, and it had the guns. The implication in the United States is more serious -- the secrecy and double-talk around surveillance means that a Big Brother state can be implemented, and that the people are lied to, and perhaps the Constitution is not being upheld after all.
- 13y ago
brucefancher 13y ago
My creeping concern is that Naomi Wolf is one missed dose of her medication from becoming a bag lady.

110 points by ferdo 13y ago

Open speculation about intelligence programs is a little bit like numerology. If you start looking for patterns to fit narratives to, you'll find them.

e3pi 13y ago
No Such Agency --> New Spotlight Agency is a 180 degrees turn-about. Why? She offers: "...From the standpoint of the police state and its interests — why have a giant Big Brother apparatus spying on us at all times — unless we know about it?" More than tinhat?
- tptacek 13y ago
  No.
  - e3pi 13y ago
    When I was an undergraduate, the Mathematics Department cork board of announcements had an NSA(No Such Agency era) brochure, describing a program labelled something like `OCREA'. I do not remember it clearly, but its intent was soliciting academics to preview their work with the NSA before publishing, or possibly, it was an offer for grant funding. What struck me, and why I remember it, was the freehand watercolor/acrylic bluish/dark painting graphic of the entire cover page, Showing a long straight road/landing-strip(?) made of rectangular tiles, receding into a horizon's vanishing point of a low horizontal mountain range. To one side, we see a small green budding plant surfacing through some broken tiles. Suggesting to me: "A weed surfacing through a sidewalk needs to be snipped."
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Considering the historical role of the NSA, I'd imagine it was more a reference to hope and freedom bursting out of oppression. People who work at these agencies do not think they are evil, they think they are contributing to ensuring American freedom and prosperity.
      - MisterWebz 13y ago
        "Well, first of all, let me take you—the population at NSA, about 85 percent of them, I think, are ISTJs on the Myers-Briggs scale, and they’re very strong introverts, you know? They have a very focused job to do. Breaking a crypt system or something is a very focused effort. You—it’s really intense. So it’s really something that’s really compatible with their character. And so, when something happens and they see things happening to people who get involved, like myself or others, they get afraid. And being introverts, they even go further as—further into themselves and staying isolated. So, that’s—that’s the primary character of people. And the others, the others are probably part of it and believe that it’s the correct thing to do. And they don’t try to find a reasonable, constitutionally acceptable, legally acceptable way to do the—to achieve the objectives that they want. They simply felt that they had to go to the far—the other far side of the spectrum and get as much as they can about everybody they can." - William Binney
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
antiterra 13y ago
Maybe they're trying to trick us into thinking that they're trying to trick us so that they can trick us by trying to trick us into thinking we're being tricked!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- tptacek 13y ago
  Shit.
- pasbesoin 13y ago
  Buffalo buffalo buffalo... Oh, never mind. ---- P.S. Ok, for the downvoters: I tend to engage in humor on HN in very limited amounts. (Yes, the way things "used to be", here.) I knew the risks in making my comment. But, the parent reminded me of the linguistic (and logical) tangle we can start entering in discussing conditionals upon conditionals. Which in turn reminded me of this other linguistic tangle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffal... That's the context of my remark.
- stcredzero 13y ago
  Really, they've just tricked us into not having enough levels of recursion.
- Breakthrough 13y ago
  Sounds like Daniel Suarez' novel Daemon. TL,DR: Programmer dies but his program manipulates the world after his death, then the US government spreads word that the program is a hoax, so later in the novel most people disbelieve that such a program can even exist (because the government "disproved" it!), hindering any chance that society would even believe that something like this existed, let alone was possible. I just wanted to throw it out there to illustrate the parallels of the plot in the novel with the current things happening right now...
- nostrademons 13y ago
  Never argue with a Sicilian when death is on the line!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
This actually describes intelligence based on overly-broad data collection as well.
- tptacek 13y ago
  It can, yes. But the narratives NSA comes up with are falsifiable; that's the function of the agencies who are NSA's customers.

e3pi 13y ago

crypto adj. Secret; covert. gon suff. A figure having a specified kind or number of angles. Governments, Corporations and Media are out of control. These prominent components of our society are increasingly driven by hypocrisy, corruption and greed. They have never been more powerful than they are today, and their ability to shape the outcome of events goes mostly unnoticed by the public at large. The Cryptogon refers to the hidden structure underlying and interconnecting the political, economic and perception management systems currently in operation on this planet. When John Ralston Saul states that, “In reality, we are today in the midst of a theology of pure power—power born of structure, not of dynasty or arms,” the “structure” he is referring to is what I am calling the Cryptogon. http://www.cryptogon.com/?page_id=2 http://www.cryptogon.com/?page_id=2

CognitiveLens 13y ago

This is an interesting take on the situation, although it's one that I would normally dismiss as tin-foil hat thinking. Given the source and clear reluctance in making these assertions, however, it's definitely a perspective worth including in the discussion. If Wolf is right, it certainly seems like a risky move on the part of the NSA (or related organization) - one that could easily backfire, since for the most part it's just fomenting more negative sentiment toward government in general. The shock of these "revelations" will subside and the country will likely go back to business as usual (as it does after most shocking revelations"), but with even less trust in its leadership. As for discouraging whistleblowing, they have so far missed the mark - for the most part Snowden has come across as pretty difficult to hate, even for people who disagree with his actions.

streptomycin 13y ago

This would be better on /r/conspiracy than Hacker News.

_pmf_ 13y ago
> This would be better on /r/conspiracy than Hacker News. Shallow reasoning ... check No understanding of subject matter ... check Usage of pseudo psychological nonsense instead of any hard evidence ... check

rsync 13y ago

I'm suspicious too. The Hong Kong part is what irks me - I cannot imagine making that choice, given a world of asylum options. His line of reasoning is borderline incomprehensible. Add that to the concerted effort of the powers that be to paint China as our cyber-terror-enemy ... and he is aligned with China now, vis-a-vis HK ... you know very well that j6p already refers to him as "that nerd that defected to China".

sramsay 13y ago
I agree. This is the weirdest part of this whole thing. Surely there are a dozen countries less inclined to want to extradite Snowden to the U.S. for the grounds stated. Why not flee to a country that is a weak (but not too weak) ally of the U.S., thoroughly outraged by the PRISM program, and which doesn't have an extradition treaty that could possibly be construed as permitting extradition under the stated terms (as Hong Kong arguably does with the U.S.). I'm not try to defend Wolf. Just sayin' . . .
- at-fates-hands 13y ago
  I actually thought the weirdest thing - how was a guy who was a high school dropout get a gig at the NSA? Even small businesses won't hire someone unless they have a four year degree. I know its possible for developers to get a job based on being self taught. I highly, highly, doubt a government agency like the NSA would hire someone with such sketchy credentials. My other real concern was brought up in the article. Once you're about to feel the full brunt of the United States Government coming after you, it's usually standard procedure to lawyer up. Considering this guy hasn't done so indicates he's not scared of whatever bad guys are coming after him. Which means, either he's really stupid, or he has no reason to be afraid.
  - sramsay 13y ago
    "I highly, highly, doubt a government agency like the NSA would hire someone with such sketchy credentials." Absolutely. It's boilerplate on job descriptions for Federal jobs of any consequence. You can't answer the phones without having a four-year degree.

hobs 13y ago

Let's have more articles of pure speculation. I am interested in the topic of the NSA spying program, but it feels like I am reading post after post of articles that are just reinterpretations of facts that were already presented and interpreted numerous times. People have already insinuated that Snowden is working for the chinese/russians/whoever you care to name, and its an interesting theory, but we need some evidence.

dguido 13y ago

More here: "5 Ways NSA leaker Edward Snowden's story isn't holding up." Nearly every statement in his video interview is vastly exaggerated. http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-isnt-115500971.html http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-stor...

MattyRad 13y ago
I would advise against going to this link, or even posting the link. It is bad form to give such poor articles any traffic or credibility, and posting the link will up its ranking in search engines.
- munin 13y ago
  citizen censorship is so ironic
  - jrockway 13y ago
    This comment brought to you by Duff Beer.
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
Sounds like you didn't watch the video.
nickodell 13y ago
>Snowden overstated his salary... by a lot It's possible that Snowden was including reimbursements, a medical/dental plan, a pension, a company car, life insurance, that sort of thing. BAH may also be reporting his pay after taxes. >He reportedly left his home on May 1 Why does this matter? Has he ever claimed that he went straight from his house to HK? >Snowden didn't have 'authority' to wiretap anybody/He might not have had the ability to do so, either How do we know? If he had root access to a mail server, or a single-sign-on server, he could have leveraged that into access to much more of the network. You're not supposed to send passwords over email, but people do it all the time. I don't think he's saying that he could have also gotten away with it, merely that he had the capability to, in contrast to earlier NSA testimony that the NSA did not have the ability to collect those communications. >Snowden's résumé is fishy Why does it matter that Snowden is a dropout? He clearly worked for BAH. The only question is what his capacity was there: >and that the terms Snowden used to describe his agency positions did not match internal job descriptions. What does this mean? Does it mean, literally, that the job title that he had didn't exactly match what he said in the interview? Why aren't they stating what his actual job title was? Privacy concerns?

mtgx 13y ago

Greenwald was talking to him since January or February. So yeah, I think he had time to prepare what he'd say in front of a camera for a few minutes in this historic moment...Wouldn't you do the same? Or would you rather sound like a blabbering idiot?

cwisecarver 13y ago
He worked for Booz-Allen for three months. June - Three = March. So ... Greenwald and him were just chatting about the weather for a month or two?
- waterlesscloud 13y ago
  He had worked for other intel contractors prior to that, quite possibly in exactly the same job.
- brown9-2 13y ago
  This is one curious bit of the story that I am surprised other journalists haven't yet harped on Greenwald to reveal. For instance, did GG know if Snowden planned to take the BAH job for the purposes of taking documents?
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Is it known that the source of the docs is exclusively from BAH? I'm not convinced you can get such attention from a high profile journalist simply by claiming that you have Top Secret access and that you plan to leak some documents to him.
    - brown9-2 13y ago
      What high-profile journalist would ignore a chance to look at or publish Top Secret documents?
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

cickpass_broken 13y ago

> He is not struggling for words, or thinking hard, as even bright, articulate whistleblowers under stress will do. Rather he appears to be transmitting whole paragraphs smoothly, without stumbling. When I watched this, the assumption I made was that he was carefully prepared to take on this massive endeavour – better to be prepared for the consequences and media than to foil the effort. But, really, we have no fucking idea.

calhoun137 13y ago

This article is complete and utter bullshit. Disregarding the obviously silly idea that he is a fraud because he is organized and well spoken, her basic point seems to be that since he doesn't have a lawyer present during media interviews, then Snowden is an actor basically playing a role in a news story created by the NSA whose purpose is to scare people from becoming whistle blowers. Give me a break.

fleitz 13y ago
Snowden is seems like a student of machiavelli far more than american idealism. He has an objective and is doing the best job he can to make that objective happen. Which would contrast highly with most whistleblowers who believe that doing the right thing will result in their objective happening.
- discostrings 13y ago
  Perhaps he looked at the results of other recent whistleblowers "doing the right thing" and realized that releasing information without the right choreography would end in no attention from the media or public about the issue and a ton of trouble for himself? In an ideal world, he could release the information and each individual would engage with it, analyze it, make determinations about it, and judge whether or not it is important. In our world, if he had followed the path of previous whistleblowers and given the information to a newspaper and returned to his house in Hawaii, he likely would have been immediately arrested, and the newspaper would have published very limited yet broad information in a single article in a way that would be easy for the rest of the media to dismiss. Then the character attacks would have overwhelmed the story. Like it or not, presentation is important. Snowden has claimed his objective is making sure people know about these programs so they can decide about them. That objective, and his path thus far, seems perfectly in line with American idealism.
  - GHFigs 13y ago
    In an ideal world, he could release the information and each individual would engage with it, analyze it, make determinations about it, and judge whether or not it is important. Thats this world, minus the people that keep "choreographing" things so they have the "right" impact.

staunch 13y ago

It's probably a good idea to question everything, but this analysis is so weak it's laughable.

vivin 13y ago

There is way too much speculation in this article. Actually, that's all there is.

michaelfeathers 13y ago

Posted on Facebook. :) Waiting for the article that says that Naomi Wolf may not be who she purports to be.

robotresearcher 13y ago
Facebook post since no respectable editor would print such silly stuff.
- ferdo 13y ago
  Bad metric. I recall respectable editors pumping the "WMDs IN IRAQ!" story quite frequently once upon a time, for instance.
  - omonra 13y ago
    Ugh.

gcb0 13y ago

So what we claims is that he is a Goldstein in the making? That would be interesting. Is there any studies on how those figures come into being? I bet there are a few real Goldstein in history. Do they start already protraited as failures or at some point they have the popular opinion on their side?

skore 13y ago

a) Or he might just be a regular Nerd who cares about details. b) Or he might just be a regular Nerd who took a long time to think about this stuff. c) Or he might just be a regular Nerd with the typical emotional detachment from what he is doing while still being deeply intellectual invested. d) Pure speculation without any weighting. e) What? f) Ah good, it's not like he addressed this point in particular. g) Meta Speculation. h) Well that doesn't even begin to make sense. It's funny - she actually has a point. But the point can stand on its own, all the points she is clearly making up actually serve to cheapen that point.

alex_doom 13y ago
Basically it's a really nice compliment. In a roundabout way. You're smart enough to look at history, prepare, be presentable and don't even need a lawyer. BOOM.
- davidcuddeback 13y ago
  Reminds me of the populists who tried to enact change in ancient Rome. One of them would call for reform and end up murdered. The next one would find protection before calling for reform, but ended up murdered anyway. Each successive would-be reformer learned from the mistakes of his predecessors and changed his strategy accordingly. A couple of the reformers whose names I can remember are Tiberius Gracchus [1] and his brother Gaius Gracchus [2]. One of my favorite podcasts has an excellent six-part series on the fall of the western Roman empire, which introduced me to this very topic [3]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus [3] http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php?page=hharchive http://www.dancarlin.com//disp.php?page=hharchive

nsns 13y ago

By why do all these pseudo-lefty celebs (Wolf, Maher, etc.) make it a point to smear Snowden? They seem to be doing it of their own volition.

chipotle_coyote 13y ago
There's two kinds of conspiracy theories, I think. There's the ones that actually exist and end up getting exposed in a few years: the Pentagon Papers, the Iran-Contra scandal, the trumping up of "Iraq has WMD," and (apparently) now PRISM. Then there are the theories like "9/11 was an inside job" and "JFK was killed by the CIA," ones that would require an order of magnitude more people to do things an order of magnitude more reprehensible and keep perfectly quiet for many, many more years, yet make slip-ups that only amateur sleuths can find (or at least dare to report on) -- all for claimed ends which are, to say the least, dubious. There are common psychological threads to these theories (the Illuminati run the world, but we know the truth and that gives us some power back), but the most fascinating thing about them is that you literally can't disprove them: they're not making falsifiable claims. Scant or contradictory evidence just shows how successful the conspirators have been; lack of mainstream reporting just shows how the media is part of it. The thing is (to get back to your actual musing), once you get into that mindset, it's turtles all the way down. It's not really a left/right thing, it's a "fringe" thing -- I suspect the more you feel that your voice is shut out of the mainstream discussion, the more likely you are to suspect it's because the Powers That Be don't want to hear your voice. You may be right, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's because they can't face the holy light of your truth. Even if she hasn't gone full Alex Jones, Naomi Wolf has often seemed to me to be flirting with that kind of conspiracy mindset. I can't speak to Maher (I can't find any comments he's made on Snowden), but he seems to have a different set of biases, not as much conspiracy-based as a kind of reflexive skepticism.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  re:9/11, the official story is basically that building 7 collapsed because of burning office furniture. You believe that? "once you get into that mindset, it's turtles all the way down", huh? But sure, why even bother to actually investigate the catastrophy such huge changes are based on, when you can just ship off the debris and constantly talk about living in a "post 9/11 world"... those conspiracy theorists would ignore and and all investigations or scientific facts anyway, for circular reasons°. So let's not have any of those, it will help. Instead let's have presidents pose on coffins wrapped in flags, shuffling our feet in moments of silence as decent citizens would. ° They're on the fringe for reasons that don't interest, not really, because they're on the fringe. Where they are because that's where they are. Not that you or anyone knows this, but this topic "fascinates" you so much that you "suspect" it. That's either hardcore trolling or awkward irony, you decide.

lazyjones 13y ago

She has a few good and a few weak points there. Especially the last point is important and some peculiar reactions to this scandal can be better explained with it - for example, the odd way the Congress seems to show no interest in the mass-surveillance, as if they knew that it's a fabricated story to trigger the panopticon effect. On the other hand, I wonder what the NSA is doing in all those huge buildings, if not spying on all Americans and the rest of the world. Perhaps they're empty? Not very likely, but it would make a great story.

subsystem 13y ago

That people are focusing on the wrong things are nicely illustrated by people claiming him to be an amateur and too professional at the same time.

rollo_tommasi 13y ago

This is how James Jesus Angleton drove himself insane.

darkpicnic 13y ago

(yawn)

mark_l_watson 13y ago

+1 I at least give her credit for thinking outside of the box. It is OK to speculate and look at things from a different perspective, even if you might be wrong.

danbmil99 13y ago

I think it is more likely that he has the backing of a loose confederation of anonymous civil disobedients, young & media savvy, and they took some time to develop the story in a way they thought would achieve maximum impact. I admit the expressive neo-feminist pole dancing gf seems a bit gratuitous.

fbru02 13y ago

People still listen to Naomi Wolf? I was really wanting to like the "Shock Doctrine" but being from South America, I found the history she portrayed of SA to be totally inaccurate.

paulsmith 13y ago
That's Naomi Klein.

smutticus 13y ago

On one hand she speculates that Snowden isn't a genuine whistleblower beacuse he is too organized(a, b, c). Then she speculates that Snowden isn't a genuine whistleblower because he is not organized.(f, h) Which is it? Seriously, this article does more to decredit Namoi Wolf than anything else. I had more respect for her prior to reading this piece. I could continue to rip this article apart but I'm hungry and need to cook dinner.

jabbernotty 13y ago

I was hoping to find a well-reasoned story here, but it isn't there. I don't find her reasoning to be logical, and she keeps calling things strange or abnormal based on either a single anecdote, or none at all.

plg 13y ago

tl;dr : if you don't like the message (or don't like the idea of believing the message to be true), then you attack the messenger

surrealize 13y ago

Wolf thinks Snowden is fake because he talks about all the bad things that might happen to him as a result of his leaking. She thinks that he's drawing attention to those bad things on purpose, to scare other potential whistleblowers. But Greenwald was the one drawing attention to that stuff, by asking Snowden what he expected the US government to do to him. Snowden wasn't volunteering that on his own; it was Greenwald trying to play up the human-interest angle.

Myrmornis 13y ago

Greenwald has been in contact with the film maker Poitras for over 1 year. Presumably it was Greenwald not Snowden who introduced her. But surely this Wolf person knows that, if she's a media type who hangs out with Assange's entourage. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/ http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det...

ferdo 13y ago

"In The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot, Wolf takes a historical look at the rise of fascism, outlining 10 steps necessary for a fascist group (or government) to destroy the democratic character of a nation-state and subvert the social/political liberty previously exercised by its citizens: 1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy 2. Create secret prisons where torture takes place 3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens 4. Set up an internal surveillance system 5. Harass citizens' groups 6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release 7. Target key individuals 8. Control the press 9. Treat all political dissidents as traitors 10. Suspend the rule of law The book details how this pattern was implemented in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and elsewhere, and analyzes its emergence and application of all the 10 steps in American political affairs since the September 11 attacks." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf#The_End_of_America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf#The_End_of_America

gnu8 13y ago

How much does the NSA pay for this?

return0 13y ago

The only thing that can undermine his credibility is if the US government comes up with indisputable proof that NONE of what he said was true. Her arguments are a complete red herring

blendergasket 13y ago

To me this is one of those weird things. Basically all of this is an act of faith on our part. We either believe he's legit or we don't. We can't know what kind of weird psy-ops the government is pulling on us. I choose to believe that this is real but I can't know for sure and for all I know I could be part of some bigger, darker plot orchestrated by who knows who. Not to get all metaphysical but the more that's hidden from us the less we're able to know what in the world is ever going on. It's weird being a human.

davidcuddeback 13y ago

I think she has some interesting points, but they don't necessarily stand up to scrutiny. Occam's Razor says that we should be skeptical of conspiracy theories and require a lot more evidence than a celebrity's hunch. On the issue of hiring a filmmaker, a little investigation suggests that Greenwald might have had a prior connection with her. The filmmaker's name is Laura Poitras [1]. There's a New York Times article covering her involvement in making the video [2]. In April 2012, Greenwald wrote an article about the U.S. detaining her at the border [3]. I think it's reasonable to believe that Greenwald may have had a prior connection with her. Also, as I mentioned in another comment [4], history shows that reformers learn from their predecessors' successes and mistakes. The way he orchestrated the release of the documents could be a symptom of his learning from previous whistle-blowers. It's unfortunate that the best part of her post was at the very end. Regardless of the merits of the rest of her post, I think her last statement is worth remembering: "But do consider that in Eastern Germany, for instance, it was the fear of a machine of surveillance that people believed watched them at all times — rather than the machine itself — that drove compliance and passivity. From the standpoint of the police state and its interests — why have a giant Big Brother apparatus spying on us at all times — unless we know about it?" [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/business/media/filmmaker-linked-to-leaks-has-her-own-stories-to-tell.html?hp&_r=1& http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/15/business/media/filmmaker-l... [3] http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/ http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5885959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5885959

garry 13y ago
That last point would be incredibly salient it if it weren't for the fact that East Germany had no claim to legitimacy via the will of the people or a Constitution that guaranteed life, liberty and and the pursuit of happiness. It had legitimacy because it was the state, and it had the guns. The implication in the United States is more serious -- the secrecy and double-talk around surveillance means that a Big Brother state can be implemented, and that the people are lied to, and perhaps the Constitution is not being upheld after all.
13y ago

brucefancher 13y ago

My creeping concern is that Naomi Wolf is one missed dose of her medication from becoming a bag lady.