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Actual sources: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/713590-fisa-business-records-talking-points-6-6-13.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/713590-

Actual sources: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/713590-fisa-business-records-talking-points-6-6-13.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/713590-fisa-business... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/713592-nsa-internet-talking-points-6-7-13.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/713592-nsa-internet-... They're pretty much just defending that it's legal, which I think we can all sadly admit is true. I just don't think it's right, our government should not be keeping that kind of records on its citizens, or anyone. Please, write to your senators, not all of them are convinced. If you are a foreigner, write to your legal representatives expressing your concern. If we are loud enough our government will listen. I believe that our government still listens to its people, but if we don't take action in democracy, our voice will be lost.

A1kmm 13y ago
The US government has been fighting hard to stop a proper adversarial determination on whether it is legal; it is hard to challenge the legality of a secret system without even having all the facts about the system, and an ex parte hearing (i.e. where the only party putting forward arguments is the US government, to a secret court) isn't likely to fully explore the legality. As I understand it (IANAL, I am not an American), the US government is only supposed to spy on people with a warrant, but in this case they got essentially a 'blank cheque' warrant that let them spy on everyone. Such a broad warrant is not due process, because the court is not able to consider the specifics of each case data might be used for before data is collected.
pyvpx 13y ago
> They're pretty much just defending that it's legal, which I think we can all sadly admit is true. I just don't think it's right, our government should not be keeping that kind of records on its citizens, or anyone. but that's the entire point. it isn't legal. the supreme law of the land is the Constitution and everything after it is inferior. I could careless what Congress passes or the NSA writes in its policy documents -- it's not legal. it's all very much illegal.
Taylorious 13y ago
Just because congress secretly approved it doesn't make it legal. If congress secretly approved gulags where prisoners are worked to death like in North Korea, it wouldn't be legal just because congress said it was.

A1kmm 13y ago

The US government has been fighting hard to stop a proper adversarial determination on whether it is legal; it is hard to challenge the legality of a secret system without even having all the facts about the system, and an ex parte hearing (i.e. where the only party putting forward arguments is the US government, to a secret court) isn't likely to fully explore the legality. As I understand it (IANAL, I am not an American), the US government is only supposed to spy on people with a warrant, but in this case they got essentially a 'blank cheque' warrant that let them spy on everyone. Such a broad warrant is not due process, because the court is not able to consider the specifics of each case data might be used for before data is collected.

pyvpx 13y ago

> They're pretty much just defending that it's legal, which I think we can all sadly admit is true. I just don't think it's right, our government should not be keeping that kind of records on its citizens, or anyone. but that's the entire point. it isn't legal. the supreme law of the land is the Constitution and everything after it is inferior. I could careless what Congress passes or the NSA writes in its policy documents -- it's not legal. it's all very much illegal.

Taylorious 13y ago

Just because congress secretly approved it doesn't make it legal. If congress secretly approved gulags where prisoners are worked to death like in North Korea, it wouldn't be legal just because congress said it was.