4 ms·

Can the phone be made to receive while "powered off" -- even sporadically? They wouldn't want to tip their hand re:transmission capabilities. They'd probably

by beambot 13y ago

Can the phone be made to receive while "powered off" -- even sporadically? They wouldn't want to tip their hand re:transmission capabilities. They'd probably only activate the capability on-demand, and only for high-value targets (ie. by sending a special packet to be received by the "powered off" handset). It's sorta like turning your phone into a listening "bug" while powered on... you wouldn't want to constantly stream data and tip your hand -- you'd only activate the capability when there is a strong likelihood of a valuable conversation occurring.

CamperBob2 13y ago
No, not undetectably. Someone would notice, trust me.
thezilch 13y ago
Nah, we'd have seen statistically more plane crashes. /s
marshray 13y ago
It probably wouldn't take noticeable power to run voice-activated microphone audio compression and storage. Then the recorded audio could be transmitted later when the battery was back in.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day and there would be blood in the streets the next.
  - marshray 13y ago
    > Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Note that powered-off phones still have real time clocks running, for things like keeping time. > An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. I agree, there's little chance of an analog tape recorder being in the phone. > In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day Go ask Bunnie if he thinks a well-funded attacker could implement it, having access to the baseband design docs. Then ask him how long it could be used in the wild against unsophisticated targets before it ended up on his blog. > and there would be blood in the streets the next. This surveillance malware is being found on phones and in some places there is, in fact, literal blood in the streets. https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_HackingTeam#9 https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_Hac... http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corporate-enemies-of-the-internet-for-2013/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corpo...
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Malware can't run when the power management logic has shut down the SoC and baseband hardware.
      - marshray 13y ago
        There are many processors and subsystems in modern cellphones. Malware could continue to run on some of them while the rest are sleeping. How many people actually measure the battery life of their phone when they believe it's off?
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    I'm looking at my phone and the power button is conspicuously not a toggle switch. You press the same button to turn it off as to turn it on. That means the phone has to have some logic enabled (even when it's "off") to distinguish whether closing the circuit on that button is supposed to turn the device on or turn it off (or wake up the screen or lock the device etc.) Is it so hard to imagine part of that logic including the mobile phone equivalent of wake-on-lan?
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      Is it so hard to imagine part of that logic including the mobile phone equivalent of wake-on-lan? Yes. You don't have to power up the cellular transceiver to poll a power button. That's usually handled by a dedicated power-management chip with few/no other capabilities (and an internal clock in the kHz range at most, I'd expect.)
      - XorNot 13y ago
        Also you don't need to poll a power button - it's perfectly possible to build a momentary switch which would connect a circuit long enough to turn on a FET to the battery, which could then be monitored by digital logic to use the same connection to power off.
tsotha 13y ago
How many people actually turn off their mobile? I don't think I've turned mine off in a year. The FBI has been known to hack phones such that the microphone is turned on and transmitting when the phone is on but not in use.

by beambot 13y ago

CamperBob2 13y ago

No, not undetectably. Someone would notice, trust me.

thezilch 13y ago

Nah, we'd have seen statistically more plane crashes. /s

marshray 13y ago

It probably wouldn't take noticeable power to run voice-activated microphone audio compression and storage. Then the recorded audio could be transmitted later when the battery was back in.

CamperBob2 13y ago
Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day and there would be blood in the streets the next.
- marshray 13y ago
  > Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Note that powered-off phones still have real time clocks running, for things like keeping time. > An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. I agree, there's little chance of an analog tape recorder being in the phone. > In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day Go ask Bunnie if he thinks a well-funded attacker could implement it, having access to the baseband design docs. Then ask him how long it could be used in the wild against unsophisticated targets before it ended up on his blog. > and there would be blood in the streets the next. This surveillance malware is being found on phones and in some places there is, in fact, literal blood in the streets. https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_HackingTeam#9 https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_Hac... http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corporate-enemies-of-the-internet-for-2013/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corpo...
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Malware can't run when the power management logic has shut down the SoC and baseband hardware.
    - marshray 13y ago
      There are many processors and subsystems in modern cellphones. Malware could continue to run on some of them while the rest are sleeping. How many people actually measure the battery life of their phone when they believe it's off?
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  I'm looking at my phone and the power button is conspicuously not a toggle switch. You press the same button to turn it off as to turn it on. That means the phone has to have some logic enabled (even when it's "off") to distinguish whether closing the circuit on that button is supposed to turn the device on or turn it off (or wake up the screen or lock the device etc.) Is it so hard to imagine part of that logic including the mobile phone equivalent of wake-on-lan?
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    Is it so hard to imagine part of that logic including the mobile phone equivalent of wake-on-lan? Yes. You don't have to power up the cellular transceiver to poll a power button. That's usually handled by a dedicated power-management chip with few/no other capabilities (and an internal clock in the kHz range at most, I'd expect.)
    - XorNot 13y ago
      Also you don't need to poll a power button - it's perfectly possible to build a momentary switch which would connect a circuit long enough to turn on a FET to the battery, which could then be monitored by digital logic to use the same connection to power off.

tsotha 13y ago

How many people actually turn off their mobile? I don't think I've turned mine off in a year. The FBI has been known to hack phones such that the microphone is turned on and transmitting when the phone is on but not in use.