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> location tracking information from our cellphones. Here's what a smart congressperson would ask: "Director Clapper, on April 15th, 2009, there were large pro

> location tracking information from our cellphones. Here's what a smart congressperson would ask: "Director Clapper, on April 15th, 2009, there were large protests around the country. Did your agency request cellular meta data covering that day?" It's likely obfiscated by the telco as I understand it, but imagine that freakout. We could pull our batteries out in 2003, but we don't have that feature anymore.

discostrings 13y ago
>We could pull our batteries out in 2003, but we don't have that feature anymore. Many of us still do. Some of us still greatly prefer phones with a removable battery--I wouldn't buy a phone without one. Goodbye HTC, hello Samsung.
CamperBob2 13y ago
Your phone doesn't emit any signals at all when turned off. If it did, people from the FAA to every geek with a spectrum analyzer at work would be screaming bloody murder.
- beambot 13y ago
  Can the phone be made to receive while "powered off" -- even sporadically? They wouldn't want to tip their hand re:transmission capabilities. They'd probably only activate the capability on-demand, and only for high-value targets (ie. by sending a special packet to be received by the "powered off" handset). It's sorta like turning your phone into a listening "bug" while powered on... you wouldn't want to constantly stream data and tip your hand -- you'd only activate the capability when there is a strong likelihood of a valuable conversation occurring.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    No, not undetectably. Someone would notice, trust me.
  - thezilch 13y ago
    Nah, we'd have seen statistically more plane crashes. /s
  - marshray 13y ago
    It probably wouldn't take noticeable power to run voice-activated microphone audio compression and storage. Then the recorded audio could be transmitted later when the battery was back in.
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day and there would be blood in the streets the next.
      - marshray 13y ago
        > Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Note that powered-off phones still have real time clocks running, for things like keeping time. > An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. I agree, there's little chance of an analog tape recorder being in the phone. > In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day Go ask Bunnie if he thinks a well-funded attacker could implement it, having access to the baseband design docs. Then ask him how long it could be used in the wild against unsophisticated targets before it ended up on his blog. > and there would be blood in the streets the next. This surveillance malware is being found on phones and in some places there is, in fact, literal blood in the streets. https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_HackingTeam#9 https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_Hac... http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corporate-enemies-of-the-internet-for-2013/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corpo...
        CamperBob2 13y ago
        I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Malware can't run when the power management logic has shut down the SoC and baseband hardware.
  - tsotha 13y ago
    How many people actually turn off their mobile? I don't think I've turned mine off in a year. The FBI has been known to hack phones such that the microphone is turned on and transmitting when the phone is on but not in use.
- brisance 13y ago
  You must have not heard of the "roving bug". http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_me/ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_m...
  - marshray 13y ago
    That sounds an awful lot like the GM OnStar eavesdropping case.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    "The FBI can access cell phones and modify them remotely without ever having to physically handle them," James Atkinson, a counterintelligence security consultant, told ABC News. Absurd. Total fiction.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      You don't believe in OTA firmware updates?
      - CamperBob2 13y ago
        Not when the phone's powered down, I don't.
        superuser2 13y ago
        They issue the update while the phone is powered on. They can then change the behavior of the "shut down" element in the UI to black out the screen and refuse calls but continue to transmit GPS or audio on the radios.
Myrth 13y ago
Good news for people with phones without removable battery: get a Faraday cage case for times when you want it to appear dead.

discostrings 13y ago

>We could pull our batteries out in 2003, but we don't have that feature anymore. Many of us still do. Some of us still greatly prefer phones with a removable battery--I wouldn't buy a phone without one. Goodbye HTC, hello Samsung.

CamperBob2 13y ago

Your phone doesn't emit any signals at all when turned off. If it did, people from the FAA to every geek with a spectrum analyzer at work would be screaming bloody murder.

beambot 13y ago
Can the phone be made to receive while "powered off" -- even sporadically? They wouldn't want to tip their hand re:transmission capabilities. They'd probably only activate the capability on-demand, and only for high-value targets (ie. by sending a special packet to be received by the "powered off" handset). It's sorta like turning your phone into a listening "bug" while powered on... you wouldn't want to constantly stream data and tip your hand -- you'd only activate the capability when there is a strong likelihood of a valuable conversation occurring.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  No, not undetectably. Someone would notice, trust me.
- thezilch 13y ago
  Nah, we'd have seen statistically more plane crashes. /s
- marshray 13y ago
  It probably wouldn't take noticeable power to run voice-activated microphone audio compression and storage. Then the recorded audio could be transmitted later when the battery was back in.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day and there would be blood in the streets the next.
    - marshray 13y ago
      > Any attempt to do stuff like that will still require a clock signal somewhere. That clock will be noticed. I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Note that powered-off phones still have real time clocks running, for things like keeping time. > An attempt to do it in the analog domain with no synchronous logic would be even more apparent to anyone who studies the internals of the phone. I agree, there's little chance of an analog tape recorder being in the phone. > In short, no, it ain't gonna happen. It would show up on Bunnie Huang's blog one day Go ask Bunnie if he thinks a well-funded attacker could implement it, having access to the baseband design docs. Then ask him how long it could be used in the wild against unsophisticated targets before it ended up on his blog. > and there would be blood in the streets the next. This surveillance malware is being found on phones and in some places there is, in fact, literal blood in the streets. https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_HackingTeam#9 https://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792290/Spyware_Hac... http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corporate-enemies-of-the-internet-for-2013/ http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57573707-38/meet-the-corpo...
      - CamperBob2 13y ago
        I wouldn't expect to get away with it on all phones all the time. But certain phones targeted by surveillance malware? Sure. Malware can't run when the power management logic has shut down the SoC and baseband hardware.
- tsotha 13y ago
  How many people actually turn off their mobile? I don't think I've turned mine off in a year. The FBI has been known to hack phones such that the microphone is turned on and transmitting when the phone is on but not in use.
brisance 13y ago
You must have not heard of the "roving bug". http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_me/ http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_m...
- marshray 13y ago
  That sounds an awful lot like the GM OnStar eavesdropping case.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  "The FBI can access cell phones and modify them remotely without ever having to physically handle them," James Atkinson, a counterintelligence security consultant, told ABC News. Absurd. Total fiction.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    You don't believe in OTA firmware updates?
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      Not when the phone's powered down, I don't.
      - superuser2 13y ago
        They issue the update while the phone is powered on. They can then change the behavior of the "shut down" element in the UI to black out the screen and refuse calls but continue to transmit GPS or audio on the radios.

Myrth 13y ago

Good news for people with phones without removable battery: get a Faraday cage case for times when you want it to appear dead.