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It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after bei

by gnu8 13y ago

It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after being punished in the US for his crimes here, of course).

aneth4 13y ago
It is not illegal in the US to break Chinese law. In fact, it is the job of the NSA to gather intel, not to obey laws.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Oh you can fuck right off with that. It wasn't illegal to have a linking site in the UK yet that poor bastard was extradited for breaking US law, not having been there. If the US wants to do that kind of shit, then hell yes if they break laws of other countries they should get extradited there to face charges. I'm so sick of American exceptionalism.
  - adeaver 13y ago
    I regret that I only have one up vote to give.
  - aneth4 13y ago
    I suppose we should extradite people to Iran for breaking Shariah too. This isn't American exceptionalism. Do you think China will extradite their military leaders for hacking US computers? Fat chance. If agents are caught in country breaking the law, they are fair game. That's the risk. Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy.
    - flyinRyan 13y ago
      >Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy. So is suggesting that a guy who did something totally legal in his country (UK) should be extradited to the US to face charges there.
      - aneth4 13y ago
        In most cases, that's probably true. I'm not apologizing for all US policies.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  It is not ethical either, especially considering that the law itself is the exact same in the US(although NSA seems to be above it, which makes the whole issue even more contrversial IMO). Committing a crime abroad over the internet is no loophole to escape this fact, not even on moral grounds.
  - aneth4 13y ago
    Laws are not the same as ethics. It is not unethical to break the law unless the law is ethical.
waterlesscloud 13y ago
I would be shocked to learn there's a "civilized country" anywhere in the world that doesn't have its own similar efforts.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  This, of course, is no justification however. Criminal acts don't cancel each other out. I punch you, you punching me i return doesn't make my violation any less significant, instead both violations should be considered equal and treated with equal justice. Why is it okay that US government institution is above the law in this regard? How can people feel okay with governmental institutions breaking the law?
  - Kylekramer 13y ago
    Not in all cases, but criminal acts are capable of cancelling each other out. Self defense is the archetypical example. I suspect most Americans are comfortable with government operating outside the laws of other countries that are viewed as having an adversarial relationship with the US. Individuals may differ on this, but Snowden's credibility will be lost in the court of public opinion if he starts handing over information to China.
    - zxcdw 13y ago
      > Not in all cases, but criminal acts are capable of cancelling each other out. Self defense is the archetypical example. Of course the law states an exception for such cases, and usually includes(at least as far as nordic countries are concerned, which of course has no relation to the law in US, but it's something I am more familiar with) a statement which requires/encourages "least required force" too. So you can't just beat someone up in the name of "self defense". The public opinion itself, as far as it seems to be, is that whatever is good as long as it's in the interest of US, be it morally justified or not. For example violating the privacy of foreign internet users is all good and somehow justified because "it keeps US citizens safe". Yeah right.
      - 13y ago
regal 13y ago
Sounds like impassioned idealistic rhetoric. And what should happen with the Chinese higher ups who authorized hacking teams to infiltrate the U.S. and other Western targets? Further, who gets to decide what should happen and why, exactly, that's what should happen? No country is going to deport the people running its defense programs to countries those defense programs are being run against, unless it's surrendering unconditionally and that's one of the demands it must yield to.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  Are yo trying to imply that because the matter is not straightforward, it shouldn't be dealt with? The whole act of "gathering foreign intelligence" seems very immoral to me. Saying that everybody does it is no justification, neither is saying that it is a requirement for national security, because national security threats, as I see it, in the US, are a consequence of US the invasive and offensive foreign politics and military presence. While I understand that there's an inherent need for national security, I fail to see how that justifies breaching the privacy of foreign/domestic targets if the same issue can be dealt with by changing the stance on foreign nations through foreign and military politics. Just as it is immoral for me to probe around my neighbours house to see if he has plans to break into mine, it is immoral to breach foreign security measures even if they are digital. Things like this should not be just shrugged at, be the perpetrator US, Chinese, Russian or Middle-Eastern.
brown9-2 13y ago
Everything a military does when it is in a foreign country (meaning, in a war) breaks the law of those countries as well. Should America ship off the troops it asked to go fight in Country X to face justice for the war America started in Country X? This is a very immature view of how countries interact with each other.
threeseed 13y ago
Sorry what laws have been broken again ? I wasn't aware there were ones that applied to persons/institutions OUTSIDE the country.
travisp 13y ago
>It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after being punished in the US for his crimes here, of course). What if those computers are breaking into computers in your country? While I wouldn't be surprised if we are involved in things like this more broadly, we have no way of knowing, from the information presented, if this was the result of counter-espionage attempts.

by gnu8 13y ago

aneth4 13y ago

It is not illegal in the US to break Chinese law. In fact, it is the job of the NSA to gather intel, not to obey laws.

flyinRyan 13y ago
Oh you can fuck right off with that. It wasn't illegal to have a linking site in the UK yet that poor bastard was extradited for breaking US law, not having been there. If the US wants to do that kind of shit, then hell yes if they break laws of other countries they should get extradited there to face charges. I'm so sick of American exceptionalism.
- adeaver 13y ago
  I regret that I only have one up vote to give.
- aneth4 13y ago
  I suppose we should extradite people to Iran for breaking Shariah too. This isn't American exceptionalism. Do you think China will extradite their military leaders for hacking US computers? Fat chance. If agents are caught in country breaking the law, they are fair game. That's the risk. Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    >Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy. So is suggesting that a guy who did something totally legal in his country (UK) should be extradited to the US to face charges there.
    - aneth4 13y ago
      In most cases, that's probably true. I'm not apologizing for all US policies.
zxcdw 13y ago
It is not ethical either, especially considering that the law itself is the exact same in the US(although NSA seems to be above it, which makes the whole issue even more contrversial IMO). Committing a crime abroad over the internet is no loophole to escape this fact, not even on moral grounds.
- aneth4 13y ago
  Laws are not the same as ethics. It is not unethical to break the law unless the law is ethical.

waterlesscloud 13y ago

I would be shocked to learn there's a "civilized country" anywhere in the world that doesn't have its own similar efforts.

zxcdw 13y ago
This, of course, is no justification however. Criminal acts don't cancel each other out. I punch you, you punching me i return doesn't make my violation any less significant, instead both violations should be considered equal and treated with equal justice. Why is it okay that US government institution is above the law in this regard? How can people feel okay with governmental institutions breaking the law?
- Kylekramer 13y ago
  Not in all cases, but criminal acts are capable of cancelling each other out. Self defense is the archetypical example. I suspect most Americans are comfortable with government operating outside the laws of other countries that are viewed as having an adversarial relationship with the US. Individuals may differ on this, but Snowden's credibility will be lost in the court of public opinion if he starts handing over information to China.
  - zxcdw 13y ago
    > Not in all cases, but criminal acts are capable of cancelling each other out. Self defense is the archetypical example. Of course the law states an exception for such cases, and usually includes(at least as far as nordic countries are concerned, which of course has no relation to the law in US, but it's something I am more familiar with) a statement which requires/encourages "least required force" too. So you can't just beat someone up in the name of "self defense". The public opinion itself, as far as it seems to be, is that whatever is good as long as it's in the interest of US, be it morally justified or not. For example violating the privacy of foreign internet users is all good and somehow justified because "it keeps US citizens safe". Yeah right.
    - 13y ago

regal 13y ago

Sounds like impassioned idealistic rhetoric. And what should happen with the Chinese higher ups who authorized hacking teams to infiltrate the U.S. and other Western targets? Further, who gets to decide what should happen and why, exactly, that's what should happen? No country is going to deport the people running its defense programs to countries those defense programs are being run against, unless it's surrendering unconditionally and that's one of the demands it must yield to.

zxcdw 13y ago
Are yo trying to imply that because the matter is not straightforward, it shouldn't be dealt with? The whole act of "gathering foreign intelligence" seems very immoral to me. Saying that everybody does it is no justification, neither is saying that it is a requirement for national security, because national security threats, as I see it, in the US, are a consequence of US the invasive and offensive foreign politics and military presence. While I understand that there's an inherent need for national security, I fail to see how that justifies breaching the privacy of foreign/domestic targets if the same issue can be dealt with by changing the stance on foreign nations through foreign and military politics. Just as it is immoral for me to probe around my neighbours house to see if he has plans to break into mine, it is immoral to breach foreign security measures even if they are digital. Things like this should not be just shrugged at, be the perpetrator US, Chinese, Russian or Middle-Eastern.

brown9-2 13y ago

Everything a military does when it is in a foreign country (meaning, in a war) breaks the law of those countries as well. Should America ship off the troops it asked to go fight in Country X to face justice for the war America started in Country X? This is a very immature view of how countries interact with each other.

threeseed 13y ago

Sorry what laws have been broken again ? I wasn't aware there were ones that applied to persons/institutions OUTSIDE the country.

travisp 13y ago

>It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after being punished in the US for his crimes here, of course). What if those computers are breaking into computers in your country? While I wouldn't be surprised if we are involved in things like this more broadly, we have no way of knowing, from the information presented, if this was the result of counter-espionage attempts.