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Edward Snowden: Classified US data shows Hong Kong hacking targets

159 points by teawithcarl 13y ago

apalmer 13y ago
Dude is going away for a long long time... He honestly better get himself at least 1000 miles deep into the center of mainland china
- mikecane 13y ago
  If China grabs him, they will put him in North Korea.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Pretty sure that China is not keen on owing North Korea any more favours.
    - mikecane 13y ago
      Interesting that now North Korea wants to open talks with the U.S., according to a news tweet tonight (June 15th): https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/346074606270038017 https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/346074606270038017 Strictly coincidence?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
seanalltogether 13y ago
So is this his strategy for why he chose hong kong over iceland for the initial leaks, he believes he can get china on his side to offer him protection?
uvdiv 13y ago
The detailed records - which cannot be independently verified - show specific dates and the IP addresses of computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland hacked by the National Security Agency over a four-year period. [...] "I don't know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only that using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines is a violation of law. It's ethically dubious," Snowden said in the interview on Wednesday. So he has no idea what foreign entity the NSA is targeting or why, yet he decides to warn them about it? This is supposed to be ethical, responsible whistleblowing?
- jkn 13y ago
  using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines is a violation of law I'm OK with whistleblowing of illegal actions performed by secret services (enough of this sh*t!). Though I don't know whether he's right regarding the illegality of NSA's actions.
  - irishcoffee 13y ago
    He isn't. Most everything he has said he isn't right about. I'm calling it now, the internet blew itself out of proportion over a video and 4 power point slides. This is public knowledge but never spoken about, Snowden was looking for years [0] to find something to leak. He didn't stumble across this and have an overwhelming moral urge to do "the right thing." I'll take the very unpopular opinion: I have a very strong feeling he is almost completely wrong in what he thinks he knows. [1] [0] If you read the timeline you will see this. I'm looking for better sources, as I read it directly, but can't find at the moment. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/timeline-edward-snowdens-life/story?id=19394487#.UbtBl9hXr9x http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/timeline-edward-snowdens-life/... [1] This tone of feeling wronged and spied upon is borne of complete ignorance. http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden-completely-wrong-104432298.html http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden-completely-wrong-104432...
    - jgrahamc 13y ago
      I'll take the very unpopular opinion: I have a very strong feeling he is almost completely wrong in what he thinks he knows. I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint and I think the entire reporting by The Guardian/Greenwald has been shit. Greenwald does not appear technically competent in the slightest and there's no mention in the reporting I've seen of anyone with any technical knowledge being involved and so we simply have no idea what is in the 'thousands' of documents that Snowden has taken. And neither does Greenwald.
      - irishcoffee 13y ago
        I appreciate that quite a bit. I am very confused by how HN specifically reacted to this story. There are a lot of really smart people here, and most of them seem hell-bent on jumping to conclusions with almost no facts, based on terrible reporting by non-technical people. This place is usually very picky about fact-checking too.
teawithcarl 13y ago
I don't get the sense Snowden is pro-China, or that his goal is to defect to China. Definitely however, these new classified disclosures raise temperatures across many fronts, including his own boiling pot. The status of his four computers (whether in his possession, or hidden elsewhere in HK) is significant because China could overrule HK and get its hands on all of Snowden's data if he's arrested. I personally trust Snowden's actions, and believe his personal motives are ethical, albeit controversial. 国民我相信，美国和中国政府不相信。 See related NY Times article. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5880362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5880362
- somebehemoth 13y ago
  From the NYT article: "The data, if independently verified, could help Chinese officials figure out which computers have been hacked, patch security holes, itemize compromised data, analyze the quality of computer security defenses and develop techniques for hardening other Chinese computers against future surveillance by the N.S.A." So he is offering aid to the Chinese government in the form of top secret US data. I understand the need to have whistle blowers and respect that some things need light shined on them. However, I draw the line at specifically assisting foreign governments who are often hostile to democracy and the West. If the reverse happened and a Chinese security contractor fled to the U.S. with state secrets I would be less worried but I do think that person would be a traitor to China.
  - teawithcarl 13y ago
    I agree.
  - testbro 13y ago
    Isn't that sidestepping the morality of hacking foreign civilian infrastructure? I appreciate that national security is important, but should a nation state be permitted to break into whatever it wants without consequence?
  - regal 13y ago
    I've been listening to the book Spycraft, and if there's one theme that keeps recurring, it's that things never end well for the agent informing against his country. The handlers often turn the guy over once he's outlived his usefulness to his homeland, or eventually he gets gotten. Snowden's play here seems to be that he assumes the U.S. is going to lock him up for life or worse, so he's throwing his lot in with China and showing up with, "Hey, here you go! Loads of free stuff!" But he apparently doesn't know much about the Chinese, or the history of turncoats and how these things usually play out. Nobody trusts a traitor, not even if he showed up with plentiful offerings. It's like having a gal cheat on her husband with you, then tell you she wants to divorce him and marry you. No chance of her doing the same thing to you now, right?
daywalker 13y ago
This is to garner local support. A HK legislator is backing Snowden because civilian infrastructure in HK has been hacked. This is a criminal offence and must be investigated. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/china-support-for-snowden.cnn.html http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/... There will also be a rally in HK to support Snowden on Saturday. http://supportsnowden.org/ http://supportsnowden.org/
jv22222 13y ago
I can't quite understand what Snowdon is trying to do here. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems the most likely outcome from this revelation is to alienate his existing supporters in the USA and to possibly seed a cold war with China.
- apalmer 13y ago
  There is already a hot cyber war going on with China, it isn't even really 'classified', I am sure the full extent is classified, but its well known that china's cyber force have been relentlessly attacking US government and commercial assets on a large scale for years. That the US is doing the same thing, while not publicly stated, i would think is a pretty reasonable assumption. He is literally committing espionage, I am glad the privacy related items came out, and frankly I hope the bulk of what he stockpiled eventually becomes public knowledge. But he is without doubt releasing US government secrets to a 'friendemy' foreign nation with the express intent of personal benefit. thats spying, text book, thats not whistle blowing.
  - daywalker 13y ago
    Nonsense.
    - mjolk 13y ago
      At first, I was dismissive of your point of view, but your cogent reasoning convinced me otherwise.
- regal 13y ago
  It's pretty clear this was his plan from the get-go. Now we know why the U.S. was looking for him so hard. Revealing that the country is tracking its citizens is one thing. Revealing covert cyber espionage secrets to a country the U.S. has a lot of tension with is something else. It appears the delay in releasing this information was to let him build up a good guy and hero image in the Western press first. "Hero selflessly outs nefarious government plot for the common good!" Then he goes and tells China about the U.S. infiltrating its systems, so that China will protect him. So much for the whole hero thing. The NSA didn't even have to roll out a tar-and-feather campaign. Snowden took care of it all by himself.
waterlesscloud 13y ago
He's going to lose American support with this kind of thing. This is more or less what the NSA is supposed to be doing, and many Americans are going to openly support these activities. It will make many much more sympathetic to accusations of espionage against Snowden. Undermines the privacy concerns raised earlier, unfortunately.
- gnu8 13y ago
  It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after being punished in the US for his crimes here, of course).
  - aneth4 13y ago
    It is not illegal in the US to break Chinese law. In fact, it is the job of the NSA to gather intel, not to obey laws.
    - flyinRyan 13y ago
      Oh you can fuck right off with that. It wasn't illegal to have a linking site in the UK yet that poor bastard was extradited for breaking US law, not having been there. If the US wants to do that kind of shit, then hell yes if they break laws of other countries they should get extradited there to face charges. I'm so sick of American exceptionalism.
      - adeaver 13y ago
        I regret that I only have one up vote to give.
      - aneth4 13y ago
        I suppose we should extradite people to Iran for breaking Shariah too. This isn't American exceptionalism. Do you think China will extradite their military leaders for hacking US computers? Fat chance. If agents are caught in country breaking the law, they are fair game. That's the risk. Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy.
ph0rque 13y ago
Not to go all conspiracy, but maybe it's US Government providing the info in order to discredit Snowden and lay the groundwork for getting rid of him?
- apalmer 13y ago
  My Pet conspiracy theory is Snowden's is a US operative, and the whole goal of this operation is to get the US populous to accept this whole surveillance state, and to get congress to fully legitimize these surveillance operations...
  - pradocchia 13y ago
    > get the US populous to accept this whole surveillance state, and to get congress to fully legitimize these surveillance operations... that does, frankly, seem the most likely outcome of all this, specific orchestrations aside. no one really has the stomach to roll back the security state, so after a good catharsis, these programs will get legitimized, we'll accept pervasive surveillance as the new normal, and adjust our lives accordingly.
    - gwgarry 13y ago
      Well you better be very careful about what you say because you don't want to denied entry to the US now do you?
      - pradocchia 13y ago
        Keep your head down and stay out of trouble, yes.
  - cgio 13y ago
    I am not betting on any side of his actual position, even though I would like it to be someone who does it for his principles. In any case, though, what you say is how this thing will play out. Covert operations control a dissenting minority. Control of a majority requires publicity of the operations so that the majority is then self-controlled.
aneth4 13y ago
As much as I'm glad NSA snooping came to light, I'm very uncomfortable with a rogue 20-something singlehandedly deciding issues of national defense. It is not enough simply that something be illegal. IMO, something must be highly unethical and capable of causing severe lasting harm in order to justify turning over classified information. Snowden is not a justice, an elected representative, or someone in general who we want deciding what we should and shouldn't know.
- btbuildem 13y ago
  It just goes to show how much is wrong with the current system, that he could have such a serious impact. It shows how fundamentally misguided the foundations of this system are -- the very philosophy on which they act is wrong.
- nathas 13y ago
  > Snowden is not a justice, an elected representative, or someone in general who we want deciding what we should and shouldn't know You're going to trust the people in power to make the judgement calls over their own power....? "Hey guys we can blackmail anyone. Let's make sure that the proper checks and balances are placed on that, I hate unlimited knowledge and power."
  - aneth4 13y ago
    I certainly don't think every foot soldier should be deciding what needs to be secret or not. The definition of power is making these decisions. Those in power legitimately deserve some latitude to excercise that power. "Those in power" is now Snowden because he took that power illegitimately. There is a time and a place for that, and some of these leaks may be that. Some of this is definitely borderline.
    - rfugger 13y ago
      He's done a heroic thing, and I think he deserves some latitude in defending himself from the unjust prosecution of those he's exposed. They brought it on themselves.
kbenson 13y ago
I have to say, it would renew my faith in the competency of government if this was all some elaborate scheme to get an agent close to other countries to plant targeted, specific misinformation, and Snowden is actually some super-spy. Alas, there are easier ways to accomplish that, an operation this big would never remain secret, and acting in the open like this has to have a hundred other downsides.
pdeuchler 13y ago
What is with HN?! Just because they are Chinese means they don't deserve basic human liberties? Just because you live in a different country doesn't mean you lose these rights, they may not be recognized but you are still entitled to them. Furthermore, there's an extremely large cognitive dissonance here. China owns trillions of US national debt... this is debt that the leaders of our country have given willingly, and gladly pocketed the resulting cash. How is that any less treason than alerting our lenders that their systems have been broken into? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." Chinese, American, British, Pakistani, Russian, French, it doesn't matter. The targeting of innocents by drones is wrong no matter where you are from, why does the right to privacy and property (or happiness, depending on your school of philosophy) not follow that same logic? Perhaps we should be more concerned that we are continuing to pick petty fights with our fellow man over ideologies, rather than the fact that one man is perceived to have violated our specific ideology. But I guess my idealist is showing. My 2 cents.
- ryanhuff 13y ago
  Isn't there is a difference between whistle-blowing what you believe to be misdeeds by your government against its citizens, and disclosing what are essentially military secrets to foreign governments? I haven't been following the story as closely as many, but it seems that he has crossed into more turbulent waters.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    Military secrets about illegal activities against foreign governments.
    - ryanhuff 13y ago
      What specifically is he claiming that the US did against foreign governments, and what law did this activity breach? At this point, all I can gleam is that the US spies on other countries, as do many others.
    - 13y ago
shailesh 13y ago
The pattern of events is pretty strange. Snowden, a US citizen, chose to leak the documents to Guardian and not New York Times, meant to be published while he is in Hong Kong, which is under Chinese rule in the matters of foreign policy. I'm genuinely trying to understand as to why he didn't trust a single person from his country? With the claims of the access he made, it should have been far easier to find one, without going to a non-US newspaper* and boarding a plane to a nation that is not on exactly the friendliest terms to US. (* Nothing against Guardian, it's just that the visible pieces of the puzzle do not seem to fit together.) It is very hard to believe that he had sweeping access levels. For one, NSA has its own chip manufacturing facilities, teams of mathematicians and security experts. Even if we don't know how NSA works, we can deduce from its contributions to open source: selinux, Apache Accumulo. Surely, they are expected to have tighter systems. Besides, he was an employee of a contractor. Even less reason to provide elevated access to him. So, if he has material in his hands, than his security clearance would allow, then it is way more surprising. Snowden's statements ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Edited: grammar. Update: thanks to zecho and brown9-2 for their comments; Snowden leaked it to an American.
- brown9-2 13y ago
  For what it's worth, the Guardian has a growing US contingent and office in NY staffed by many Americans. He leaked it to an American. We should view his leak target as Glenn Greenwald, not "The Guardian" - I think he would have leaked to Greenwalk no matter where he worked.
- zecho 13y ago
  > I'm genuinely trying to understand as to why he didn't trust a single person from his country? This is untrue. Snowden contacted The Washington Post first, according to their account, but when they did not move as quickly as he would like, he approached The Guardian. However, the accounts from the Washington Post and The Guardian conflict with one another, so it's possible he worked with both in tandem while trying not to tip his hand to either.
spdy 13y ago
He is a smart kid. He has to position himself as a bargain chip, that`s one reason he picked HK. You can number the countries in this world who would be powerful enough to withstand US pressure. Never forget he is only 29 without an escape plan you dont make this kind of journey. If he has to live his remaining life in China/HK he is probably fine with that. And please step out of your box it does not matter where someone is from. Now everyone is screaming "traitor traitor" and you all forget what he uncovered and brought to main media attention. But soon he will be forgotten marked as a traitor and everything will move back to square one. And secret courts will grant agencies powers nobody knows about :).
- daywalker 13y ago
  He can't be a traitor and extradited for treason... because treason doesn't exist in Hong Kong's basic law. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/china-support-for-snowden.cnn.html http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/...
- vvpan 13y ago
  Definitely. When you have a life sentence coming your way (like in Manning's case) anything goes. If this is a way for him to protect himself, then it is a decision we should respect, because this is the price to be paid for his other revelations.
danielharan 13y ago
Sounds like Snowden is warning the NSA that there are far more secrets that could be revealed, potentially very damaging to the US. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn of a dead man's switch. It's one way to make sure the US doesn't insist too much for the right to extradite.
- e3pi 13y ago
  > I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn of a dead man's switch. ...and secondary time released emails and other publishing events not trusting the Washington Post or Guardian.
asr2bd 13y ago
I really don't understand this outrage about the NSA (allegedly I know, but let's be serious) hacking Chinese targets. That's their job. The Chinese, through hacking, have obtained highly classified information about our most advanced weapons systems. They've stolen critical information about the F-35, AEGIS radar, not to mention hacking US companies to steal their intellectual property. The internet open, free, etc but the world is still defined by borders and national interest. Nations have always needed to collect intel to inform their decision making and they've employed spies to do it. It just so happens the medium that the NSA operates in is the digital one, with their spies sitting in a big black building in Virginia instead of being some James Bond style agent.
- daywalker 13y ago
  Do you have any evidence to back up your first paragraph? Anything that has stood up in a court of law? Or are you just regurgitating talking points you've heard from the mainstream press?
downandout 13y ago
While it's interesting to have confirmation that we are also engaging in cyberwarfare internationally, I think this most recent disclosure is evidence that he is in way over his head. This seems to be a desperate attempt to use this information to win safe haven over there. The problem is that the fact that we hack them and they hack us is not news, and no one is going to risk trade relations with the US in order to provide safe haven to him because he told them something they already knew. Also, he no longer has access to top secret information. Therefore he has zero value to them as an intelligence asset, and his mere presence is an enormous liability. While I am grateful for what he has done, and he's welcome to hide at my place anytime, the moment a warrant is issued, he is toast. He has overplayed his hand, and unfortunately he is about to feel the wrath of a very vindictive US Government. He will be locked up, likely for the rest of his life.
- johnwyles 13y ago
  I will not agree with you that he has overplayed his hand. Obama was just meeting with Chinese leadership not but a week ago with pleas for the government to stop their cyber attacks on US targets. This is exposing that hypocrisy. Additionally he could be an asset to the Chinese government because he likely has MUCH more information than is being made public. However, I think because of his strict ideals to do no harm I think he will be unlikely to cooperate with them on divulging anything that would be of substance to the Chinese government. All that said I think he may still have information he wants to make light of and so, simply because he still does not have access to this information, does not mean he does not having something explosive waiting to be revealed. I think he is a liability to the HK and Chinese governments but they are not easy to kowtow to the US demands simply on the grounds that he has violated laws which HK does not recognize themselves. Grab some popcorn, this will develop much more interestingly than I think you think it will.
gridmaths 13y ago
I think its a good thing to bring light on this. I hope this will get both sides to draw up some boundaries for cyber war - at least we might get a relatively peaceful standoff so we can trade with each other. A standoff is better than all out escalation with increasingly dramatic incursions and dialog where each side loses face, raising political tensions. We should realize the beneficiaries of cyberwar escalation are the contractor companies coupled tightly to the NSA. I don't think that many hackers are getting rich, comfortable maybe, but not the big bucks.
kevinbluer 13y ago
Just speculation, but any thoughts on the possibility of this being coordinated FUD put out there to discredit Snowden (although this would require some degree of USG collaboration with South China Morning Post)? If this were the case it's already worked reasonably well in muddying the opinion / perception here on HN, and would obviously give significant ammunition to the mainstream media.
crapstain 13y ago
A true hero for China.
zhemao 13y ago
So basically he's trying to get people in HK to like him so they'll fight his extradition. "Hey HK, the US gov is spying on you too! We're in this together! Please don't send me back."

159 points by teawithcarl 13y ago

Dude is going away for a long long time... He honestly better get himself at least 1000 miles deep into the center of mainland china

mikecane 13y ago
If China grabs him, they will put him in North Korea.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Pretty sure that China is not keen on owing North Korea any more favours.
  - mikecane 13y ago
    Interesting that now North Korea wants to open talks with the U.S., according to a news tweet tonight (June 15th): https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/346074606270038017 https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/346074606270038017 Strictly coincidence?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

seanalltogether 13y ago

So is this his strategy for why he chose hong kong over iceland for the initial leaks, he believes he can get china on his side to offer him protection?

uvdiv 13y ago

The detailed records - which cannot be independently verified - show specific dates and the IP addresses of computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland hacked by the National Security Agency over a four-year period. [...] "I don't know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only that using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines is a violation of law. It's ethically dubious," Snowden said in the interview on Wednesday. So he has no idea what foreign entity the NSA is targeting or why, yet he decides to warn them about it? This is supposed to be ethical, responsible whistleblowing?

jkn 13y ago
using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines is a violation of law I'm OK with whistleblowing of illegal actions performed by secret services (enough of this sh*t!). Though I don't know whether he's right regarding the illegality of NSA's actions.
- irishcoffee 13y ago
  He isn't. Most everything he has said he isn't right about. I'm calling it now, the internet blew itself out of proportion over a video and 4 power point slides. This is public knowledge but never spoken about, Snowden was looking for years [0] to find something to leak. He didn't stumble across this and have an overwhelming moral urge to do "the right thing." I'll take the very unpopular opinion: I have a very strong feeling he is almost completely wrong in what he thinks he knows. [1] [0] If you read the timeline you will see this. I'm looking for better sources, as I read it directly, but can't find at the moment. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/timeline-edward-snowdens-life/story?id=19394487#.UbtBl9hXr9x http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/timeline-edward-snowdens-life/... [1] This tone of feeling wronged and spied upon is borne of complete ignorance. http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden-completely-wrong-104432298.html http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden-completely-wrong-104432...
  - jgrahamc 13y ago
    I'll take the very unpopular opinion: I have a very strong feeling he is almost completely wrong in what he thinks he knows. I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint and I think the entire reporting by The Guardian/Greenwald has been shit. Greenwald does not appear technically competent in the slightest and there's no mention in the reporting I've seen of anyone with any technical knowledge being involved and so we simply have no idea what is in the 'thousands' of documents that Snowden has taken. And neither does Greenwald.
    - irishcoffee 13y ago
      I appreciate that quite a bit. I am very confused by how HN specifically reacted to this story. There are a lot of really smart people here, and most of them seem hell-bent on jumping to conclusions with almost no facts, based on terrible reporting by non-technical people. This place is usually very picky about fact-checking too.

teawithcarl 13y ago

I don't get the sense Snowden is pro-China, or that his goal is to defect to China. Definitely however, these new classified disclosures raise temperatures across many fronts, including his own boiling pot. The status of his four computers (whether in his possession, or hidden elsewhere in HK) is significant because China could overrule HK and get its hands on all of Snowden's data if he's arrested. I personally trust Snowden's actions, and believe his personal motives are ethical, albeit controversial. 国民我相信，美国和中国政府不相信。 See related NY Times article. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5880362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5880362

somebehemoth 13y ago
From the NYT article: "The data, if independently verified, could help Chinese officials figure out which computers have been hacked, patch security holes, itemize compromised data, analyze the quality of computer security defenses and develop techniques for hardening other Chinese computers against future surveillance by the N.S.A." So he is offering aid to the Chinese government in the form of top secret US data. I understand the need to have whistle blowers and respect that some things need light shined on them. However, I draw the line at specifically assisting foreign governments who are often hostile to democracy and the West. If the reverse happened and a Chinese security contractor fled to the U.S. with state secrets I would be less worried but I do think that person would be a traitor to China.
- teawithcarl 13y ago
  I agree.
- testbro 13y ago
  Isn't that sidestepping the morality of hacking foreign civilian infrastructure? I appreciate that national security is important, but should a nation state be permitted to break into whatever it wants without consequence?
- regal 13y ago
  I've been listening to the book Spycraft, and if there's one theme that keeps recurring, it's that things never end well for the agent informing against his country. The handlers often turn the guy over once he's outlived his usefulness to his homeland, or eventually he gets gotten. Snowden's play here seems to be that he assumes the U.S. is going to lock him up for life or worse, so he's throwing his lot in with China and showing up with, "Hey, here you go! Loads of free stuff!" But he apparently doesn't know much about the Chinese, or the history of turncoats and how these things usually play out. Nobody trusts a traitor, not even if he showed up with plentiful offerings. It's like having a gal cheat on her husband with you, then tell you she wants to divorce him and marry you. No chance of her doing the same thing to you now, right?

daywalker 13y ago

This is to garner local support. A HK legislator is backing Snowden because civilian infrastructure in HK has been hacked. This is a criminal offence and must be investigated. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/china-support-for-snowden.cnn.html http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/... There will also be a rally in HK to support Snowden on Saturday. http://supportsnowden.org/ http://supportsnowden.org/

jv22222 13y ago

I can't quite understand what Snowdon is trying to do here. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems the most likely outcome from this revelation is to alienate his existing supporters in the USA and to possibly seed a cold war with China.

apalmer 13y ago
There is already a hot cyber war going on with China, it isn't even really 'classified', I am sure the full extent is classified, but its well known that china's cyber force have been relentlessly attacking US government and commercial assets on a large scale for years. That the US is doing the same thing, while not publicly stated, i would think is a pretty reasonable assumption. He is literally committing espionage, I am glad the privacy related items came out, and frankly I hope the bulk of what he stockpiled eventually becomes public knowledge. But he is without doubt releasing US government secrets to a 'friendemy' foreign nation with the express intent of personal benefit. thats spying, text book, thats not whistle blowing.
- daywalker 13y ago
  Nonsense.
  - mjolk 13y ago
    At first, I was dismissive of your point of view, but your cogent reasoning convinced me otherwise.
regal 13y ago
It's pretty clear this was his plan from the get-go. Now we know why the U.S. was looking for him so hard. Revealing that the country is tracking its citizens is one thing. Revealing covert cyber espionage secrets to a country the U.S. has a lot of tension with is something else. It appears the delay in releasing this information was to let him build up a good guy and hero image in the Western press first. "Hero selflessly outs nefarious government plot for the common good!" Then he goes and tells China about the U.S. infiltrating its systems, so that China will protect him. So much for the whole hero thing. The NSA didn't even have to roll out a tar-and-feather campaign. Snowden took care of it all by himself.

waterlesscloud 13y ago

He's going to lose American support with this kind of thing. This is more or less what the NSA is supposed to be doing, and many Americans are going to openly support these activities. It will make many much more sympathetic to accusations of espionage against Snowden. Undermines the privacy concerns raised earlier, unfortunately.

gnu8 13y ago
It's illegal to break into computers in all civilized countries. The director of the NSA should be extradited to China to face justice for his crimes (after being punished in the US for his crimes here, of course).
- aneth4 13y ago
  It is not illegal in the US to break Chinese law. In fact, it is the job of the NSA to gather intel, not to obey laws.
  - flyinRyan 13y ago
    Oh you can fuck right off with that. It wasn't illegal to have a linking site in the UK yet that poor bastard was extradited for breaking US law, not having been there. If the US wants to do that kind of shit, then hell yes if they break laws of other countries they should get extradited there to face charges. I'm so sick of American exceptionalism.
    - adeaver 13y ago
      I regret that I only have one up vote to give.
    - aneth4 13y ago
      I suppose we should extradite people to Iran for breaking Shariah too. This isn't American exceptionalism. Do you think China will extradite their military leaders for hacking US computers? Fat chance. If agents are caught in country breaking the law, they are fair game. That's the risk. Suggesting the US should extradite our leaders to China is armchair idiocy.

ph0rque 13y ago

Not to go all conspiracy, but maybe it's US Government providing the info in order to discredit Snowden and lay the groundwork for getting rid of him?

apalmer 13y ago
My Pet conspiracy theory is Snowden's is a US operative, and the whole goal of this operation is to get the US populous to accept this whole surveillance state, and to get congress to fully legitimize these surveillance operations...
- pradocchia 13y ago
  > get the US populous to accept this whole surveillance state, and to get congress to fully legitimize these surveillance operations... that does, frankly, seem the most likely outcome of all this, specific orchestrations aside. no one really has the stomach to roll back the security state, so after a good catharsis, these programs will get legitimized, we'll accept pervasive surveillance as the new normal, and adjust our lives accordingly.
  - gwgarry 13y ago
    Well you better be very careful about what you say because you don't want to denied entry to the US now do you?
    - pradocchia 13y ago
      Keep your head down and stay out of trouble, yes.
- cgio 13y ago
  I am not betting on any side of his actual position, even though I would like it to be someone who does it for his principles. In any case, though, what you say is how this thing will play out. Covert operations control a dissenting minority. Control of a majority requires publicity of the operations so that the majority is then self-controlled.

aneth4 13y ago

As much as I'm glad NSA snooping came to light, I'm very uncomfortable with a rogue 20-something singlehandedly deciding issues of national defense. It is not enough simply that something be illegal. IMO, something must be highly unethical and capable of causing severe lasting harm in order to justify turning over classified information. Snowden is not a justice, an elected representative, or someone in general who we want deciding what we should and shouldn't know.

btbuildem 13y ago
It just goes to show how much is wrong with the current system, that he could have such a serious impact. It shows how fundamentally misguided the foundations of this system are -- the very philosophy on which they act is wrong.
nathas 13y ago
> Snowden is not a justice, an elected representative, or someone in general who we want deciding what we should and shouldn't know You're going to trust the people in power to make the judgement calls over their own power....? "Hey guys we can blackmail anyone. Let's make sure that the proper checks and balances are placed on that, I hate unlimited knowledge and power."
- aneth4 13y ago
  I certainly don't think every foot soldier should be deciding what needs to be secret or not. The definition of power is making these decisions. Those in power legitimately deserve some latitude to excercise that power. "Those in power" is now Snowden because he took that power illegitimately. There is a time and a place for that, and some of these leaks may be that. Some of this is definitely borderline.
  - rfugger 13y ago
    He's done a heroic thing, and I think he deserves some latitude in defending himself from the unjust prosecution of those he's exposed. They brought it on themselves.

kbenson 13y ago

I have to say, it would renew my faith in the competency of government if this was all some elaborate scheme to get an agent close to other countries to plant targeted, specific misinformation, and Snowden is actually some super-spy. Alas, there are easier ways to accomplish that, an operation this big would never remain secret, and acting in the open like this has to have a hundred other downsides.

pdeuchler 13y ago

What is with HN?! Just because they are Chinese means they don't deserve basic human liberties? Just because you live in a different country doesn't mean you lose these rights, they may not be recognized but you are still entitled to them. Furthermore, there's an extremely large cognitive dissonance here. China owns trillions of US national debt... this is debt that the leaders of our country have given willingly, and gladly pocketed the resulting cash. How is that any less treason than alerting our lenders that their systems have been broken into? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." Chinese, American, British, Pakistani, Russian, French, it doesn't matter. The targeting of innocents by drones is wrong no matter where you are from, why does the right to privacy and property (or happiness, depending on your school of philosophy) not follow that same logic? Perhaps we should be more concerned that we are continuing to pick petty fights with our fellow man over ideologies, rather than the fact that one man is perceived to have violated our specific ideology. But I guess my idealist is showing. My 2 cents.

ryanhuff 13y ago
Isn't there is a difference between whistle-blowing what you believe to be misdeeds by your government against its citizens, and disclosing what are essentially military secrets to foreign governments? I haven't been following the story as closely as many, but it seems that he has crossed into more turbulent waters.
- flyinRyan 13y ago
  Military secrets about illegal activities against foreign governments.
  - ryanhuff 13y ago
    What specifically is he claiming that the US did against foreign governments, and what law did this activity breach? At this point, all I can gleam is that the US spies on other countries, as do many others.
  - 13y ago

shailesh 13y ago

The pattern of events is pretty strange. Snowden, a US citizen, chose to leak the documents to Guardian and not New York Times, meant to be published while he is in Hong Kong, which is under Chinese rule in the matters of foreign policy. I'm genuinely trying to understand as to why he didn't trust a single person from his country? With the claims of the access he made, it should have been far easier to find one, without going to a non-US newspaper* and boarding a plane to a nation that is not on exactly the friendliest terms to US. (* Nothing against Guardian, it's just that the visible pieces of the puzzle do not seem to fit together.) It is very hard to believe that he had sweeping access levels. For one, NSA has its own chip manufacturing facilities, teams of mathematicians and security experts. Even if we don't know how NSA works, we can deduce from its contributions to open source: selinux, Apache Accumulo. Surely, they are expected to have tighter systems. Besides, he was an employee of a contractor. Even less reason to provide elevated access to him. So, if he has material in his hands, than his security clearance would allow, then it is way more surprising. Snowden's statements ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Edited: grammar. Update: thanks to zecho and brown9-2 for their comments; Snowden leaked it to an American.

brown9-2 13y ago
For what it's worth, the Guardian has a growing US contingent and office in NY staffed by many Americans. He leaked it to an American. We should view his leak target as Glenn Greenwald, not "The Guardian" - I think he would have leaked to Greenwalk no matter where he worked.
zecho 13y ago
> I'm genuinely trying to understand as to why he didn't trust a single person from his country? This is untrue. Snowden contacted The Washington Post first, according to their account, but when they did not move as quickly as he would like, he approached The Guardian. However, the accounts from the Washington Post and The Guardian conflict with one another, so it's possible he worked with both in tandem while trying not to tip his hand to either.

spdy 13y ago

He is a smart kid. He has to position himself as a bargain chip, that`s one reason he picked HK. You can number the countries in this world who would be powerful enough to withstand US pressure. Never forget he is only 29 without an escape plan you dont make this kind of journey. If he has to live his remaining life in China/HK he is probably fine with that. And please step out of your box it does not matter where someone is from. Now everyone is screaming "traitor traitor" and you all forget what he uncovered and brought to main media attention. But soon he will be forgotten marked as a traitor and everything will move back to square one. And secret courts will grant agencies powers nobody knows about :).

daywalker 13y ago
He can't be a traitor and extradited for treason... because treason doesn't exist in Hong Kong's basic law. http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/china-support-for-snowden.cnn.html http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/06/13/...
vvpan 13y ago
Definitely. When you have a life sentence coming your way (like in Manning's case) anything goes. If this is a way for him to protect himself, then it is a decision we should respect, because this is the price to be paid for his other revelations.

danielharan 13y ago

Sounds like Snowden is warning the NSA that there are far more secrets that could be revealed, potentially very damaging to the US. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn of a dead man's switch. It's one way to make sure the US doesn't insist too much for the right to extradite.

e3pi 13y ago
> I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn of a dead man's switch. ...and secondary time released emails and other publishing events not trusting the Washington Post or Guardian.

asr2bd 13y ago

I really don't understand this outrage about the NSA (allegedly I know, but let's be serious) hacking Chinese targets. That's their job. The Chinese, through hacking, have obtained highly classified information about our most advanced weapons systems. They've stolen critical information about the F-35, AEGIS radar, not to mention hacking US companies to steal their intellectual property. The internet open, free, etc but the world is still defined by borders and national interest. Nations have always needed to collect intel to inform their decision making and they've employed spies to do it. It just so happens the medium that the NSA operates in is the digital one, with their spies sitting in a big black building in Virginia instead of being some James Bond style agent.

daywalker 13y ago
Do you have any evidence to back up your first paragraph? Anything that has stood up in a court of law? Or are you just regurgitating talking points you've heard from the mainstream press?

downandout 13y ago

While it's interesting to have confirmation that we are also engaging in cyberwarfare internationally, I think this most recent disclosure is evidence that he is in way over his head. This seems to be a desperate attempt to use this information to win safe haven over there. The problem is that the fact that we hack them and they hack us is not news, and no one is going to risk trade relations with the US in order to provide safe haven to him because he told them something they already knew. Also, he no longer has access to top secret information. Therefore he has zero value to them as an intelligence asset, and his mere presence is an enormous liability. While I am grateful for what he has done, and he's welcome to hide at my place anytime, the moment a warrant is issued, he is toast. He has overplayed his hand, and unfortunately he is about to feel the wrath of a very vindictive US Government. He will be locked up, likely for the rest of his life.

johnwyles 13y ago
I will not agree with you that he has overplayed his hand. Obama was just meeting with Chinese leadership not but a week ago with pleas for the government to stop their cyber attacks on US targets. This is exposing that hypocrisy. Additionally he could be an asset to the Chinese government because he likely has MUCH more information than is being made public. However, I think because of his strict ideals to do no harm I think he will be unlikely to cooperate with them on divulging anything that would be of substance to the Chinese government. All that said I think he may still have information he wants to make light of and so, simply because he still does not have access to this information, does not mean he does not having something explosive waiting to be revealed. I think he is a liability to the HK and Chinese governments but they are not easy to kowtow to the US demands simply on the grounds that he has violated laws which HK does not recognize themselves. Grab some popcorn, this will develop much more interestingly than I think you think it will.

gridmaths 13y ago

I think its a good thing to bring light on this. I hope this will get both sides to draw up some boundaries for cyber war - at least we might get a relatively peaceful standoff so we can trade with each other. A standoff is better than all out escalation with increasingly dramatic incursions and dialog where each side loses face, raising political tensions. We should realize the beneficiaries of cyberwar escalation are the contractor companies coupled tightly to the NSA. I don't think that many hackers are getting rich, comfortable maybe, but not the big bucks.

kevinbluer 13y ago

Just speculation, but any thoughts on the possibility of this being coordinated FUD put out there to discredit Snowden (although this would require some degree of USG collaboration with South China Morning Post)? If this were the case it's already worked reasonably well in muddying the opinion / perception here on HN, and would obviously give significant ammunition to the mainstream media.

crapstain 13y ago

A true hero for China.

zhemao 13y ago

So basically he's trying to get people in HK to like him so they'll fight his extradition. "Hey HK, the US gov is spying on you too! We're in this together! Please don't send me back."